SNestor

Offset Deck Posts in Deck Rail

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Taking the advice I learned on this site...I created a deck railing wall definition which adds a layer to the inside of the deck rail using "opening no material".  This "trick" does offset the deck rail...moving the entire rail, posts and rail together toward the inside of the deck so that the newels don't right on the edge of the deck.  It just looks more realistic. 

 

However...this also increases the overall wall width...and "sometimes" I end up with a wall line on the inside.  I don't want this wall line to appear....and on some plans it doesn't.  Is there a way to turn off the wall lines?  I thought it might be a layer setting...but, after some trial and error...I don't think it is.  

 

Any help and/or better ideas would be appreciated.

 

Here is a plan view of the deck...

597695c87047f_DECKRAILQUESTION1.thumb.jpg.b9a7b50493a10408bc96afde7e41b65a.jpg

 

Here is the wall definition...

597695e964413_DECKRAILQUESTION2.thumb.png.7ab312284ac4da54e310e2e2e64f273b.png

 

Here's the plan...

Simple Deck with Railing - Wall Line Shows.plan

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Steve,  Go to Deck Railing Specification DBX and Newels/Balusters> Plan Display and deselect Draw Rails.  But you also have to go to the Rails tab and make the width automatic.  And then it only works in the DBX display and not the plan.  Also tried setting the wall line style to blank in the Wall Type DBX but could not get results.    Bug ??

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Steve,

 

Is this what you're looking for?

Railing.thumb.png.11f04cb7044a665e79b34f3fc153e4e1.png

If so, I think your best bet is probably to set the wall to be a pony wall and only display the lower wall type in plan view.  I only had a few extra minutes to look at it and I may hacve missed something, but I have attached the modified plan so you can take a look for yourself.  I don't have time to get into all the details, but in short we're a bit limited with the display of railing walls and I've found that using a pony wall is sometimes the answer for those trickier situations.  Hopefully this helps...

 

Railing.plan

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11 hours ago, solver said:

Here is another option. Use a thin invisible wall to create the deck perimeter, then a No Room Def railing wall set in from the edge to show the railing.

 

Simple_Deck_with_Railing_-_Wall_Line_Shows (eric).zip

 

Eric - Thanks for your help.  

I'm wondering what the "invisible wall" is accomplishing?  Is it just defining the edge of the deck?  This got me wondering...what is it that defines the edge of the deck?  Is it the rail wall...or if there isn't a railing then is it the deck layer that defines the edge of the deck?  

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This is why I get confused...is it me or is it a bug in CA?  Errr....stuff like this just costs time/money to correct...or, you just accept it and go on.  

 

Attached is a simple plan that I created by selecting "new plan"...which is created using my "base template plan".  I drew the 4 exterior walls...then I drew the deck rails...which I have defined in my base template plan.  

 

As you can see...the deck rail appears just like I would want it to.  No inside line.  So...why?  Why is this wall type working in this plan...but not in the plan previously posted.  

 

Thanks again to all that posted help...but, something is still goofy.  I'm sure it's a user error issue...

 

Here is the new plan...simple deck

DECK RAIL PLAN 2.plan

 

Here is a plan view pic...

59775627aa7d4_DECKRAILPLAN2-PlanView.thumb.png.fe8e127ba2aeff3b122e4e90e280818a.png

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8 minutes ago, SNestor said:

I'm wondering what the "invisible wall" is accomplishing?  Is it just defining the edge of the deck?

 

A Deck needs walls (they can be any type) enclosing it like any other room, so yes, they are just defining the deck.

 

Because the railing is No Room Def, it can be anywhere.

 

You can define a room outside the deck, lower the floor height and place the railing in that room to show the posts extending down over the rim.

 

h1.thumb.jpg.37acff2bd1cc20de982e8db72a26f4cd.jpg

 

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Hi Steve....

 

looks like you have been playing with your wall definitions, as you have two different wall types defined and the layers are reversed and different widths between your two plans...

Capture44.PNG

Capture45.PNG

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1 hour ago, Kbird1 said:

Hi Steve....

 

looks like you have been playing with your wall definitions, as you have two different wall types defined and the layers are reversed and different widths between your two plans...

Capture44.PNG

Capture45.PNG

 

Well...maybe that's all it is.  I'll check this out and report back.  

 

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3 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Hi Steve....

 

looks like you have been playing with your wall definitions, as you have two different wall types defined and the layers are reversed and different widths between your two plans...

Capture44.PNG

Capture45.PNG

 

Attached are plans...both using same wall def.  Appearance is different.  I'm wondering if it's a bug...or, if it's a layer issue?  So weird...

 

Here are pics of both decks using same wall type/definition...

5977afd181bfc_DeckRail3PlanView.thumb.png.bc45efb5a00d941cac13a0ee567e73a7.png    5977afde0b7fb_SimpleDeckwithRail-lineshows.thumb.png.d04990b1ccbade94997e056db9fc8dcb.png

 

Here are both plan files...

No inner line on this deck rail...DECK RAIL PLAN 3.plan

 

Inner line does appears on this deck rail...Simple Deck with Railing - Wall Line Shows.plan

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I think you missed my point in the Pics Steve..... your Template plan has an outer layer of 5" and an iner layer of 3 1/2" (Fir Stud.)

 

your simple Deck Plan   has those two layer reversed with the Fir Stud on the exterior  at 5 1/2" and the Opening as the inner layer at 6"

 

If I match the Simple Plans Wall's layers to your Template settings , the walls "move" and look like your Template plan. ( once you close the DBX)

 

click on opening Material > move up    and then change the two thickness was all I did...

 

still looks slightly different but I did nt check the other settings like Auto Rail width.

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9 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I think you missed my point in the Pics Steve..... your Template plan has an outer layer of 5" and an iner layer of 3 1/2" (Fir Stud.)

 

your simple Deck Plan   has those two layer reversed with the Fir Stud on the exterior  at 5 1/2" and the Opening as the inner layer at 6"

 

If I match the Simple Plans Wall's layers to your Template settings , the walls "move" and look like your Template plan. ( once you close the DBX)

 

click on opening Material > move up    and then change the two thickness was all I did...

 

still looks slightly different but I did nt check the other settings like Auto Rail width.

 

Sorry Mick...I don't think that's the issue.  

 

I exported the wall definition from the simple deck plan, where the line does not appear...then imported into my more complete railing plan.  Both plans are using the exact wall definition.  The "opening no material" layer is placed at the top of the main layer in both plans.  So...the issue doesn't seem to be the wall def...it's something else. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to even look at this...it's not the end of the world really...but, it's crap like this that can make a guy spend an hour trying to fix it...instead of just moving on and living with it.  Just makes me crazy...:wacko:

 

Here is the wall def:

   5977b735afc87_Deck-WallDef.thumb.png.6c4416dfc800285149b2602b07ff1f81.png

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try the open no material at 5" instead of 10"

 

anything?

 

is one plan an old version eg X7 and the other X9 anything like that?

 

I guess I should of asked what trick your'e using and which way around the Layers should go , I'm normally forcing the post out to be fascia mounted , so likely the opposite of what you are trying to do.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

try the open no material at 5" instead of 10"

 

anything?

 

is one plan an old version eg X7 and the other X9 anything like that?

 

 

 

Both plans created in X9.  Walls are exact in both plans.  I did change the depth of the "opening no mat"...had no effect.  

 

Weird...just weird. 

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1 hour ago, SNestor said:

 

Both plans created in X9.  Walls are exact in both plans.  I did change the depth of the "opening no mat"...had no effect.  

 

Weird...just weird. 

 

I guess WE need GlennW to pop in here :)

 

M.

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Here I pop!

 

The difference between the 2 plans is that the DECK RAIL PLAN 3 (no extra wall line) has the deck floor level set at the default zero height.

The other plan with the long name that I couldn't be bothered typing, has the deck floor set at -4" (this is displaying the extra wall line).

Once you change this deck floor level to zero, the extra line disappears.

Any negative floor height causes the extra line to appear.

I am still playing with it to see if I can find the cause.

It is weird behavior.

I'll keep digging and see if I can come up with the reason.

Maybe hand over to tech support?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, glennw said:

Here I pop!

 

The difference between the 2 plans is that the DECK RAIL PLAN 3 (no extra wall line) has the deck floor level set at the default zero height.

The other plan with the long name that I couldn't be bothered typing, has the deck floor set at -4" (this is displaying the extra wall line.

Once you change this deck floor level to zero, the extra line disappears.

Any negative floor height causes the extra line to appear.

I am still playing with it to see if I can find the cause.

It is weird behavior.

I'll keep digging and see if I can come up with the reason.

Maybe hand over to tech support?

 

 

 

Thanks Glenn!  

 

I wouldn't have ever thought to consider that the floor elevation was the cause.  

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11 hours ago, SNestor said:

Thanks Glenn!  

 

I wouldn't have ever thought to consider that the floor elevation was the cause.  

 

Thx Glenn  ...I never considered Elevation as an issue either .....That is a Bug and need to be reported then , as Decks by Code can't be at the same level as the Floor , at least around here , same for Patios etc , due to Water infiltration.

 

M.

 

 

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On 7/25/2017 at 10:42 AM, solver said:

Because the railing is No Room Def, it can be anywhere.

 

You can define a room outside the deck, lower the floor height and place the railing in that room to show the posts extending down over the rim.

 

Eric,  You have me a little confused now that I tried your solution.  A railing wall defined as No Room Def can not be controlled by adjusting the floor height of the room.  Unless you left something out or I am not understanding.  Because bad things happen when two railing walls touch.  Also running into serious complications with deck stairs when adjusting floor heights.  Seems there is no way to lock the stairs with the deck framing.  So I am left with manually building the stairs or the railing.  Humm.....

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Chop -- This isn't something I do, so it's not offered as a complete solution, but hopefully these plans will give you some ideas. 

 

Deck defined by an invisible wall. No railing.

 

Room outside deck defined with a room divider. No Room Def railing wall drawn in this room, then pushed up against the deck.

 

I changed some wall definitions, but not sure all, or any, changes are needed.

 

chop deck 2.zip

 

You can do this without the outside room too. The No Room Def railing will be at 0" floor, and you would raise the deck inside it, instead of lowering the railing.

 

chop deck 1.zip

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Here is an other technique of doing this side mounted deck railings. The method applies the same way as erric explained about the use of invisible walls to define the deck, but no need to mess with an other room definition as it may cause complications you mentioned. Rather simply put a ramp(0 slope) around your deck and lower its elevation after you place it in plan view. So there are two alternative railing applications here. Ether use the railings of the ramp it self(since ramp with 0 pith is already placed around your deck perimeter) or simply make the native ramp railings off in ramp dbx and use an other railing wall that is set to follow the ramp. The later method allows you to easily control the level of the railing in relation to Z axis and further more it allows you to automatically interact with stairs by auto creation of the doorway as usual.

 

Here is the topic that contains the test plan and a video.

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/5306-deck-railing-post-fascia-mount-tip/#comment-46137

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Thanks guys for responding to my rant and providing some workarounds.  These will help a lot if I can incorporate them into my plan.

 

Eric,  I will have to use method 2 as I have a multi level deck but I will keep method 1 handy for its simplicity.  Sorry for the misunderstanding as you are using an extra set of walls that I did not understand until looking over your plan files, thank you for that.

 

Yusuf, Your ramp railings seem to require a 1/2" standoff from the deck or bad things happen.  Ingenious but not quite within acceptable tolerances for construction drawings.  Have you come up with a solution for this since posting or is it just something I have not figured out properly as usual.  Eric's methods seem to only require a 1/128" standoff which seems to be dependent on the wall thickness and may even be able to be reduced a little more.

 

Still a few more things to work out.  I think Eric's method 2 will work for my "T" top railing that is so common around here that I cant believe Chief does not have a simpler solution for it.  Also my Newels may need to be mortised into the deck but I will have to see about that.  Just saying there may be more to come here....   And thanks for all your help so far.   

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Chop

I don't clearly get your point about the occurance of bad things

Any way don't forget to check the native railings of the ramp to be off.

I am assuming that you already defined the deck using invisible railing. 

Then follow this simple steps.

1- align your ramp around the periphery of your deck. To easily get it done, you can break a ramp in to a number of connected segments bydrawing one straight ramp and converting it to curve, again revert it back to "n" number of straight segments as usual, so you are able to hold the vertexes of the ramp and drag to snap  with corners  of the deck.

2- once you have successfully done step #1, then put a railing wall that is checked with no room definition and  "folowi stairs" check box in dbx marked

3- for accurately positioning the railing(guess you are having problems here) wall with out interfering with the deck sides, though not sure. Simply copy the ramp to the upper floor once you set its height manually. 

4- draw your railings on the same floor that you have copied your ramp to. I think this way you have no limits.This way I am sure you can draw precisely where you want it to be!

 

Hope that helps solve the bad things you said to happen.let me know if this doesn't answer your question.

 

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