Joe_Carrick Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Overall I think Chief's format is fine. What I dont like about Chief is how reliant it is on Dbx, and the "correct" view. What I want to see improved is the generic 3D shape modeling tools, and the "grouping" mechanics. We should be able to model shapes in lieu of "objects", and then set the "shape" as a "object". You can do this. Chief allows shapes to be created by working with Solids. Once the shape (or a set of shapes) have been put together they can be either Blocked or converted to Symbols and if desired added to the Library. At that point you have an Object. Am I missing something? BTW, if you prefer using SU for 3D modeling of shapes - just export to SKP and import into Chief as a Symbol. You don't have to use Chief for 3D shape modeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I'm following you Joe, but I am curious why CA has to be this way - and can it ever change? Here is a quick example (3 stories) in Vectorworks to show nothing is connected to anything I dont want it to be - and it makes for very clean and precise movement etc. I have drawn nothing for the middle story - its 100% blank, and the model is not reliant on anything being there. In fact, I show here where I simply moved the roof up a bit, and connected only 1 wall. I find that even though CA wants to save us time in automation of this process, I easily spend MUCH more time when I run into a "quirk" I can't get myself out of. Perhaps CA is what it is and won't change, but I think if they wanted to capture more architects/designers for their clientele they should think about this. By comparison, I tried to do the same thing in CA and it gives me a roof on each floor. I tried deleting the roof on the 1st floor and the walls connect to the upper roof...going through the windows on the 3rd floor. I try checking the box "stop at ceiling above" on the 1st floor walls and nothing changes. You can say "who would want a home with no middle floor?...and yes, this example that doesn't seem logical. However, its an association issue that causes issues in CA - and really can stop a project cold trying to figure it out. I greatly prefer less logic by the program and let me enter manual data - or at least the option to turn the automation off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 You can do this. Chief allows shapes to be created by working with Solids. Once the shape (or a set of shapes) have been put together they can be either Blocked or converted to Symbols and if desired added to the Library. At that point you have an Object. Am I missing something? I can't have CA take a shape I made and make it a roof....or I can't have a shape become a wall etc. I realize there are some things you can get to behave like and object, but that is very limited from what i've seen in CA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Johnny, Like Scott, I think you do some great presentation work with Vectorworks. But no, you can not take a shape created in SU and import it to a "Roof in Chief". But you can import it as a "Geometric Shape" and place it whereever you like in the model. If you do this you would need to delete the Chief Roof. Of course, this is not going to provide Roof Framing. This is what I'm talking about with Chief being "Intellegent" as a "Building Modeling System". It isn't Vectorworks and it isn't SU. If you learn to use Chief the way it works it will do almost anything you really n eed it to do. If you fight it and try to force it to work like one of your other tools you will just be frustrated. Instead of asking "Can I make a Roof in SU and import it into Chief as a Roof?" you should ask "How do I make the roof on this model look like the attached pic?" Then include your Plan and one or more of us will help you. That's how you'r going to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Johnny, Simple curiosity question. How does VW handle split levels? And what limitations are there within VW's paradigm? It seems very logical to simply be able to tell a floor where to be, independent of, and disconnected from, other structures. It seems that 'disconnect, must be managed carefully but on the flip side one could carefully manage those floors and heights to perhaps greater advantage? My mind wants to work more like the VW and SU paradigm so adjusting to Chief is hard but adjust we must because Chief is not going change its basic stripes any time soon - or ever most likely.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ....... can say "who would want a home with no middle floor?...and yes, this example that doesn't seem logical. ...... No middle floor in CA, easy peasy. no middle floor 1.plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 No middle floor in CA, easy peasy. but try to put a roof on the 3rd floor...CA doesn't seem able to handle that without a roof on both 1st and 3rd floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 I can't have CA take a shape I made and make it a roof....or I can't have a shape become a wall etc. I realize there are some things you can get to behave like and object, but that is very limited from what i've seen in CA. Why would you want to do that instead of using Chief's tools for those things? Chief can make those items so much faster. Let me give you an example: I do log homes and have a set of Log Symbols that i use to stack a wall just like it would be built in the real world. But Chief won't recognize those as a wall. So I created a single thickness (log size) wall type using a transparent material. I build the house using those transparent walls, insert all my doors and windows and then start placing my Log Symbols centered on those walls. I stretch them to the correct lengths and replicate as needed vertically. IOW, I build my Log Walls just like I would in the real world but the Transparent Walls are what Chief recognizes as the boudaries of my structure. You're a creative guy - don't fight Chief, use it to your advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 but try to put a roof on the 3rd floor...CA doesn't seem able to handle that without a roof on both 1st and 3rd floor. Do it manually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 but try to put a roof on the 3rd floor...CA doesn't seem able to handle that without a roof on both 1st and 3rd floor. Build the roofs manually, of course auto roof will try and put a roof over outside walls on each floor. Manual roof are the way to model almost any house any way - got to learn that tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 but try to put a roof on the 3rd floor...CA doesn't seem able to handle that without a roof on both 1st and 3rd floor. Johnny, What convoluted method did you use in Chief to get that result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Johnny, Simple curiosity question. How does VW handle split levels? And what limitations are there within VW's paradigm? It seems very logical to simply be able to tell a floor where to be, independent of, and disconnected from, other structures. It seems that 'disconnect, must be managed carefully but on the flip side one could carefully manage those floors and heights to perhaps greater advantage? My mind wants to work more like the VW and SU paradigm so adjusting to Chief is hard but adjust we must because Chief is not going change its basic stripes any time soon - or ever most likely.. Split levels are easy in VW, primarily due to VW not thinking about "split levels". You can set any space, or floor level, at any point you want, and have a single wall connect however you want to any other object or shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Do it manually. It starts to close the mid floor off with walls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Johnny, What convoluted method did you use in Chief to get that result? All I did was select "build roof".... I performed the exact same thing in VW as I did in CA. The result is CA wants to star thinking for me and adding substantial walls etc. Trying to manually place a roof plane did a similar thing. Not to mention the lower wall blasting through the 3d floor wall windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 It starts to close the mid floor off with walls... You are correct unless you go to first floor and uncheck ROOF OVER THIS ROOM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Mi Amigo, there are many things that are screwed up with CA, I could find things all day long if I wanted to, but try to dwell on what is good..... CA does not work like the other programs, it works differently. I think the guys at headquarters will eventually get around to the things you want, but right now they are busy handling my special requests..... (I slipped the chief programmer a twenty last year to take care of my needs). You wait for X-8, I think it is going to be good. I am going to the UGM to confirm they are doing some good things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 You are correct unless you go to first floor and uncheck ROOF OVER THIS ROOM. Yes, now it works. I realize this is an easy fix to make this "example" issue work the way we wanted, but actually my brain didn't even go to the fact "I have to specify that a lower section of a model needed to have a check box unchecked so the program doesn't mistakenly balloon frame those walls to the 3rd level roof". I realize 100% this is me not knowing CA, but....I feel a lot of us are in the boat. CA approach is to think for the user until the user manually changes that through a Dbx - and I believe more architects/designers would prefer CA not doing something unless its told....or at least being able to approach it from both sides. In the meantime I continue to learn CA behavior since that is the status quo. These posts have actually helped me a lot frankly - thank you guys. I've been able to demonstrate to my mind the paradigm differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Mi Amigo, there are many things that are screwed up with CA, I could find things all day long if I wanted to, but try to dwell on what is good..... CA does not work like the other programs, it works differently. I think the guys at headquarters will eventually get around to the things you want, but right now they are busy handling my special requests..... (I slipped the chief programmer a twenty last year to take care of my needs). You wait for X-8, I think it is going to be good. I am going to the UGM to confirm they are doing some good things. Thanks Scott. You're the reason I am with CA, as I think i told you before. I ran into some of your video works and investigated CA more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I've said it before and will say it again, there are brain types that can change from a building/logical bottom up approach, or the disconnected put the floor wherever you want the floor paradigm, and adapt to Chief's method without a whole lot of struggle. Other brain types see a logic that just isn't there in Chief. Not saying it's good or bad, just sayin'. If we want to learn Chief we have to let go of whatever 'logic' is being applied from our characters or brain makeup and learn the program. Easier for some than others. Guess which camp I live in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I've said it before and will say it again, there are brain types that can change from a building/logical bottom up approach, or the disconnected put the floor wherever you want the floor paradigm, and adapt to Chief's method without a whole lot of struggle. Other brain types see a logic that just isn't there in Chief. Not saying it's good or bad, just sayin'. If we want to learn Chief we have to let go of whatever 'logic' is being applied from our characters or brain makeup and learn the program. Easier for some than others. Guess which camp I live in? I largely agree, but I do think if CA is monitoring these forums (as I am sure they are), there is some valuable discussions taking place that should influence their approach. CA could leave the system they have, but add the ability (turn off automation) to manually make connections etc. I feel what we have in CA Premium for professionals is largely an overlay on the DIY products that dont have professionals at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ......."I have to specify that a lower section of a model needed to have a check box unchecked so the program doesn't mistakenly balloon frame those walls to the 3rd level roof". ............ Great, I am glad you said that because this allows me to make a point...... what would happen if the roof did not auto go to roof? Well, then for every wall we would build, we would have to specify it goes up to roof or is linked to roof or whatever a program like Revit behaves. Seriously, we can question all the nutty behaviors CA has, and I get it that you have to understand the quirkiness. But I bet that Revit, and SU and VW all have their own quirky behaviors too. And if some folks think my CA videos are a bit "blue", I wonder what they would think of my Revit vids? Hey Johnny, see you at 3:00 pst, this could be fun, we are going to have a good group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I feel what we have in CA Premium for professionals is largely an overlay on the DIY products that dont have professionals at the helm. I disagree. I feel that Chief's DIY products are simplified versions of Chief Premier, a program that has many, many professionals at the helm. More, I think than we can know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ...what would happen if the roof did not auto go to roof? Well, then for every wall we would build, we would have to specify it goes up to roof or is linked to roof or whatever a program like Revit behaves. That's a good point IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yusuf-333 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 johnny, on 06 Aug 2015 - 9:27 PM, said: I can't have CA take a shape I made and make it a roof....or I can't have a shape become a wall etc. I realize there are some things you can get to behave like and object, but that is very limited from what i've seen in CA. Why would you want to do that instead of using Chief's tools for those things? Chief can make those items so much faster. Let me give you an example: I do log homes and have a set of Log Symbols that i use to stack a wall just like it would be built in the real world. But Chief won't recognize those as a wall. So I created a single thickness (log size) wall type using a transparent material. I build the house using those transparent walls, insert all my doors and windows and then start placing my Log Symbols centered on those walls. I stretch them to the correct lengths and replicate as needed vertically. IOW, I build my Log Walls just like I would in the real world but the Transparent Walls are what Chief recognizes as the boudaries of my structure. You're a creative guy - don't fight Chief, use it to your advantage. ___________________________ As Joe says, there is nothing that you can't do in chief. Here is one like your earlier videos, the walls follow the shape as you see in the picture. More complex geometry could be done in chief, I think only the horse geometry may be tough to try in chief, and I advise to never underestimate the power of roof planes in chief. That doesn't mean I don't support pushing chief to get improved, I agree with all the valuable ideas forwarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Johnny, Chief has no problem building a multi level plan (with floors missing) with an auto roof over only the top floor. No need to manually build a roof. And the auto roof doesn't build over the intermediate floors. Off hand, I can think of several ways to do this, depending on wether you want floor/ceilings or not. Once again - you just need to learn how Chief works and stop trying to force it to work like other programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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