SNestor

Dormer over vaulted ceiling

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OK...I thought I could do this so easily.  Nope...I came close to grabbing a stick of dynamite this afternoon.  

I am trying to create a dormer over a room that has a vaulted ceiling.  Actually...the ceiling plane is at a 4/12 pitch...the roof is at a 9/12 pitch...and this seems to be the problem.  The dormer creates a "shaft".  If you set the dormer walls to be "roof cuts wall at bottom"...well, the walls get cut off at the 9/12 roof pitch.  The ceiling however is way lower than this area...so, it leaves a big gap.  

I have tried using a hole in roof...and a hole in the ceiling plane...but, the "shaft" option is always grayed out.  So...yes, I'm doing something wrong.  
 

Is there a guru out there that knows the secret to this conundrum?

 

2020-06-23_17-53-20.thumb.png.6fe528bd4e7b93c812dee77c575b3221.png2020-06-23_18-25-30.thumb.png.3f325ea6adebaee0d25cd0184e276d16.png 

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I did something like this semi recently,. But the ceiling was flat. Seems like the same problem though.  When I get back to my computer I'll see if I can figure out what I did.

Are you using an auto dormer?

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Just finished a similar scenario. This is a shed dormer on the 2nd floor. I used a p-solid for the exterior cladding. It's just so much faster. A few notes:

  • the cheek walls are on the Attic level.
  • All roof planes are on the 2nd floor
  • The vaulted ceiling plane extends under the cheek wall. I extend it to the inside of the framing of the cheek wall for proper dimensioning in plan view.
  • I use an interior 2x6 partition as the cheek wall. The 1/2" drywall is close enough to the 3/8" OSB for me and allows my p-solid for exterior cladding to 'land' on the right surface when drawn in section view.
  • None of my cheek walls have a default top or bottom. I take a section view and manipulate the wall polyline myself because Chief will mess them up forever and ever amen if I don't just do it myself.
  • section views at key locations are critical. I recommend getting one side nailed down and copy/reflect it to the other side of the dormer.
  • The Final Key Point: Trying to use Chief's auto tools will NEVER get you exactly what you need. Be prepared to make a few items yourself using objects that are stable. 

image.thumb.png.bc74f9576b0a49011da74a07a2fd04b5.png

P-solid for claddingimage.thumb.png.21cd07c83538d5200f1ef36b3b6cf9fe.png

Wall Polyline (from interior section)image.thumb.png.2b502cbd24caea4f63bfb2200e473df6.png

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Yea...I realize I could use solids but I guess what I’m wondering is what I’m seeing correct behavior or am I doing something incorrect?  
 

Solids are a work around...and I’m more than capable of using them as a fix.  But I’d prefer being able to correctly use the software and build a dormer with the tools Chief provides for this situation.  
 

So the question is - do dormer tools work or not for this type of roof/ceiling condition.  
 

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Revisited my plan to refresh my memory.  Pretty sure I did something like this but now trying it can't quite get it to cooperate.  Try it, maybe you'll have better luck.

Put a skylight in the roof adjacent to the dormer and unchecking 'skylight', and checking Generates shaft to ceiling...and selecting manually edit ceiling hole.
Then drag the skylight over to your dormer and shape the ceiling hole as you want it, and break and shape the skylight hole to the necessary shape of the roof hole.

 

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3 hours ago, SNestor said:

do dormer tools work or not for this type of roof/ceiling condition.  

 

Not automatically.

 

3 hours ago, SNestor said:

what I’m wondering is what I’m seeing correct behavior

 

Clearly incorrect.

 

 

It can be done with a bit of fiddling.

 

ct1.thumb.png.6691a53b27165c7fce9da22a1832cced.png

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6 hours ago, SNestor said:

OK...I thought I could do this so easily.  Nope...I came close to grabbing a stick of dynamite this afternoon.  

I am trying to create a dormer over a room that has a vaulted ceiling.  Actually...the ceiling plane is at a 4/12 pitch...the roof is at a 9/12 pitch...and this seems to be the problem.  The dormer creates a "shaft".  If you set the dormer walls to be "roof cuts wall at bottom"...well, the walls get cut off at the 9/12 roof pitch.  The ceiling however is way lower than this area...so, it leaves a big gap.  

I have tried using a hole in roof...and a hole in the ceiling plane...but, the "shaft" option is always grayed out.  So...yes, I'm doing something wrong.  
 

Is there a guru out there that knows the secret to this conundrum?

 

2020-06-23_17-53-20.thumb.png.6fe528bd4e7b93c812dee77c575b3221.png2020-06-23_18-25-30.thumb.png.3f325ea6adebaee0d25cd0184e276d16.png 

Can you post a plan so I don’t have to assume things and redraw from scratch myself?

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Well.......  I was able to do it again.....  do you know what the secret is?  I ain't gunna say....... well....  I will give you a few hours to see if anybody else can figure it out and then I will share the secret.

 

steve nestor dormer_scissor truss AND ANOTHER.plan

 

 

1351119916_ScreenShot2020-06-24at5_42_54AM.thumb.png.82f21d40f50c94c10f21aea0851920cb.png

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39 minutes ago, dshall said:

very interesting......  I wanted to do another.....  I was able to do it but there is a secret

 

1186353969_ScreenShot2020-06-24at5_58_48AM.thumb.png.7b50abcad6d188cb758501b911ac4130.png

 

 

steve nestor dormer_scissor truss AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER.plan

 

Scott - thanks for taking so much time to look at this question...very much appreciated.  You are so close on these dormers...which I assume take a lot of expertise and time.  However, look at my attached picture of one of your dormers...still lots of issues. Why?  

C'mon Chief - give us tools that work...

 

2020-06-24_09-41-30.thumb.png.0ea5f1a17f48d128a3e7228befa92ef2.png

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8 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Can you post a plan so I don’t have to assume things and redraw from scratch myself?

 

Michael - use the plan Scott posted...it's one we've both worked on.  Would love to hear your comments...maybe we are missing something so simple?  

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9 hours ago, solver said:

 

Not automatically.

 

 

Clearly incorrect.

 

 

It can be done with a bit of fiddling.

 

ct1.thumb.png.6691a53b27165c7fce9da22a1832cced.png


Thanks Eric - yes, it's the "fiddling" that I'm interested in.  You pic still does not look like a "perfect" dormer...even with "fiddling".  (but...much closer to perfect than anything I've accomplished)

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Where I always get hung up is that The Ceiling Hole options aren't available for a Roof Hole...I don't know why that is.

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11 minutes ago, robdyck said:

Where I always get hung up is that The Ceiling Hole options aren't available for a Roof Hole...I don't know why that is.

 

The entire process is convoluted...Roof hole, ceiling hole, skylight...oh my! :rolleyes:  I'm off to see the wizard...

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5 hours ago, SNestor said:

 

Michael - use the plan Scott posted...it's one we've both worked on.  Would love to hear your comments...maybe we are missing something so simple?  

Sorry, have to get back to work and don't have time for this anymore.  I see what you're talking about though.  That situation is just not one Chief has been programmed to handle very well.  There are a few tricks that can be employed in combination such as:

  • Reducing ceiling plane thickness to get rid of the unwanted bands
  • Using an extra roof plane (defined to be structurally invisible by adjusting settings and using a Gap material type) down at the ceiling height to cut walls off down there instead of up at the main roof plane (would require hole in upper roof plane to be adjusted
  • Creating a dormer room set as Open Below
  • Using unique wall types for the dormer walls to make layers disappear where desired
  • Using Gap material types where beneficial in some of your object definitions
  • Manually reshaping wall polylines (probably not necessary though)
  • And obviously using polyline solids...in this case I would likely only use them to create the interior wall surfaces

I would probably use some combination of the above, but they are all obviously pretty convoluted steps.  There's nothing simple or automatic I know of to accurately model that.

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5 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Sorry, have to get back to work and don't have time for this anymore.  I see what you're talking about though.  That situation is just not one Chief has been programmed to handle very well.  There are a few tricks that can be employed in combination such as:

  • Reducing ceiling plane thickness to get rid of the unwanted bands
  • Using an extra roof plane (defined to be structurally invisible by adjusting settings and using a Gap material type) down at the ceiling height to cut walls off down there instead of up at the main roof plane (would require hole in upper roof plane to be adjusted
  • Creating a dormer room set as Open Below
  • Using unique wall types for the dormer walls to make layers disappear where desired
  • Using Gap material types where beneficial in some of your object definitions
  • Manually reshaping wall polylines (probably not necessary though)
  • And obviously using polyline solids...in this case I would likely only use them to create the interior wall surfaces

I would probably use some combination of the above, but they are all obviously pretty convoluted steps.  There's nothing simple or automatic I know of to accurately model that.

 

So...all that said I glad to know it wasn't user incompetence.  Really...if my hammer was close by I might of smashed my computer.  

@Alaskan_Son thanks for taking the time and posting some great suggestions on how to accomplish this task...much appreciated.

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The secret is,  do not put a hole in the ceiling,  instead shape the ceiling plane around where the hole in the ceiling needs to be and then when the ceiling plane overlaps itself,  the hole is created.

 

You can copy that dormer roof and roof hole and ceiling hole to make another dormer.......

 

.... but it won't work if you try to do the shaped hole again.....  once the shaped ceiling plane method is used,  you do not need to do it again....  weird.

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6 hours ago, dshall said:

The secret is,  do not put a hole in the ceiling,  instead shape the ceiling plane around where the hole in the ceiling needs to be and then when the ceiling plane overlaps itself,  the hole is created.

 

You can copy that dormer roof and roof hole and ceiling hole to make another dormer.......

 

.... but it won't work if you try to do the shaped hole again.....  once the shaped ceiling plane method is used,  you do not need to do it again....  weird.

 

Sorry buddy, but I think all the examples posted above look like poo.  Not sure what method i would ultimately use since there are so many little variables from one job to the next, but I went a head and took a few minutes to mess with that first example plan posted.  Here's a quick example using using 2 or 3 of the various tricks I posted above...

Dormer.thumb.jpg.9470b3ac1b18d976e0187a7342a66b57.jpg1932385622_Dormer2.thumb.jpg.e5c8331acc5f6b50a9b87a6a1c68c53c.jpg

steve nestor dormer_scissor truss test 1.1.plan

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17 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Sorry buddy, but I think all the examples posted above look like poo.  Not sure what method i would ultimately use since there are so many little variables from one job to the next, but I went a head and took a few minutes to mess with that first example plan posted.  Here's a quick example using using 2 or 3 of the various tricks I posted above...

Dormer.thumb.jpg.9470b3ac1b18d976e0187a7342a66b57.jpg1932385622_Dormer2.thumb.jpg.e5c8331acc5f6b50a9b87a6a1c68c53c.jpg

steve nestor dormer_scissor truss test 1.1.plan

 

Yep,  a cleaner look on the inside.  

 

1196003752_ScreenShot2020-06-26at5_50_39AM.thumb.png.b8294ba1bb769dad8155a40eef1920a6.png

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I think we need to just say it...Chief - fix the dormer tools so that we can construct these types of dormers without losing our collective minds.  Jeez...:wacko:

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2 hours ago, dshall said:

 

Yep,  a cleaner look on the inside.  

 

1196003752_ScreenShot2020-06-26at5_50_39AM.thumb.png.b8294ba1bb769dad8155a40eef1920a6.png

Ya, I was messing around with a couple different options and changed the wall type at one point.  I just never changed it back.  It can be changed back to the normal wall type and you'll get framing.  It may or may not be accurate depending on how that's being built though.  Anyway, I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means.  All the various possible methods leave something to be desired and the best method will come down to the specific plan and what the plan is being used for. 

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