mulled window question

[AMYGVHB]

Everytime I mull windows , there is a thin piece of trim material between the units that shouldn't be there.  This always happens, but this is the first time it's become painfully obvious because the window frame is black and the trim is cedar. The top of the bottom window and the bottom of the top window are at set to the same height prior to mulling.  See pic for reference.

Bottom window is a casement, top window is a picture.

[robdyck]

You can't remove that. It's super lame.

[rgardner]

You m

24 minutes ago, AMYGVHB said:

Everytime I mull windows , there is a thin piece of trim material between the units that shouldn't be there.  This always happens, but this is the first time it's become painfully obvious because the window frame is black and the trim is cedar. The top of the bottom window and the bottom of the top window are at set to the same height prior to mulling.  See pic for reference.

Bottom window is a casement, top window is a picture.

I don't have that issue when mulling units unless there is a gap.  Can you post a plan file?

 

By chance did you try manually moving the window instead of with the dbx?  A window can be off by 1/16" in size or position and sometimes round to the 1/8" so maybe your lower windows is actually placed at 79 15/16" and your upper at 80???

 

 

[Dermot]

Make sure your windows are sized and positioned properly before mulling them and then set your interior and exterior mullion depth to 0.

[AMYGVHB]

Thanks Dermot! This theory worked but instead of setting the mullions to  0",  I had to set the interior and exterior mullion depth to 3" for it to completely disappear.  Maybe because it's a 6" wall?  Thank you.

[robdyck]

4 hours ago, Dermot said:

Make sure your windows are sized and positioned properly before mulling them and then set your interior and exterior mullion depth to 0.

I can't get this to work (the way I'd like) because my windows have 'frames'. The frames remain along the mullion and aren't affected by the "mullion depth' settings.

If the frames are removed, then the thin mullion can be made to disappear, but not using a value of zero. Also, removing the frames creates additional problems which affect the accurate sizing and appearance of the windows, the display of casings, and some control of materials. 

Example: to replicate the removed frame, the casing reveals need to be adjusted (faked). On the exterior, a negative overlap to simulate the frame size, means the face of the frame takes the exterior casing material, instead of the exterior sash material. It also means you can't properly replicate the depth or thickness of the window frame.

 

One of the challenges in modelling this is that many types of windows (in real) have 2 separate components that Chief uses the 'frame' to represent. The 'frame' which wraps the sashes and is part of the structure of the window is different from the interior 'jamb' or 'liner' which can vary in its depth based on the wall thickness and provide the finished surface to the interior of the window.

 

 

[dskogg]

i just set the mullion depth to 1 inch in options and it removes this line

[robdyck]

 A few more options could be given within the dbx to aid in modelling these windows.

-first off, there should be a jamb liner option that is separate from the window frame. The jamb liner would mimic the frame but to the interior only but would follow the opening only, not the window units. In the past, I've replicated this by using a pass-through window or door in the same location as a 'troublesome' window (just for better control of the casing).

-we should be able to specify the depth of the frame at the mullion. Currently, the dbx for mulled units leads us to believe we can control it, but then we realize that the mullion Chief produces is separate from the frame. 

-we could use an option to add an astragal or other trim molding to cover the mullion. 

[HomesByDesign]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:28 AM, robdyck said:

 A few more options could be given within the dbx to aid in modelling these windows.

-first off, there should be a jamb liner option that is separate from the window frame. The jamb liner would mimic the frame but to the interior only but would follow the opening only, not the window units. In the past, I've replicated this by using a pass-through window or door in the same location as a 'troublesome' window (just for better control of the casing).

-we should be able to specify the depth of the frame at the mullion. Currently, the dbx for mulled units leads us to believe we can control it, but then we realize that the mullion Chief produces is separate from the frame. 

-we could use an option to add an astragal or other trim molding to cover the mullion. 

 

Rob, has anything come of this since 2020? I can't find a thing and tried the "no frame option" but that's a poor solution as you say.

 

Thanks

[robdyck]

5 hours ago, HomesByDesign said:

 

Rob, has anything come of this since 2020? I can't find a thing and tried the "no frame option" but that's a poor solution as you say.

 

Thanks

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to model, but if you want to get rid of the mullion completely,I think the simplest is to add a pass-through the size of the mulled unit and center it on the mulled unit.

[GeneDavis]

I recall doing a change suggestion about this.  Not the mull joint issue, but that of mulled windows not matching the reality of window products when mulled.

 

In the northern climes, where brands like Andersen, Marvin, Kolbe and Kolbe, and others ship product, the window frames are two or more inches less in depth than the 2x6 wallframes in which they mount.  Jamb extensions at 2" and more reach are done, but for a mulled window, the jamb extensions wrap the mulled unit, not each individual window.  Chief gives us the wrong look.

 

You can sort of get close to real world details by setting the jamb width to something like 3.5 inches, then mull the units, but there is a hole all around where the jamb extensions go.  If you want, you can fill it with your own jamb extension, done using a 3D molding.  See the attached. 

[HomesByDesign]

On 6/22/2022 at 7:19 PM, robdyck said:

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to model, but if you want to get rid of the mullion completely,I think the simplest is to add a pass-through the size of the mulled unit and center it on the mulled unit.

 

 

Thanks Rob but I'm not getting the same results. Mulled window / pass through in same location.

And yes, what you show is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

 

Gene describes the issue as "it's as good as it gets".

 

[robdyck]

@HomesByDesign

I think we're on the same page. The pass through is used simply for the jamb and the interior / exterior casing. 

The mulled windows should have a reduced frame depth, around 3'-4".

See attached plan.

mulled window.planmulled window.plan

mulled window.plan

[HomesByDesign]

On 6/24/2022 at 6:25 PM, robdyck said:

@HomesByDesign

I think we're on the same page. The pass through is used simply for the jamb and the interior / exterior casing. 

The mulled windows should have a reduced frame depth, around 3'-4".

See attached plan.

mulled window.planUnavailable mulled window.planUnavailable

mulled window.plan 4.61 MB · 3 downloads

 

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh, of course :-). Thanks Rob,