PBR VS Raytracing

[TheKitchenAbode]

Chad - you mentioned that you could not get my suggested exterior light to work. This should not have been an issue as it's just one area light with shadows turned off. Was thinking about this and by any chance in the lighting DBX do you have lights set to automatic, if so then that may be the issue. Set this to Default Set as from my experience exterior placed lights are not recognized when using the auto setting.

[Designer1]

Rene, yeah I just did multi copy tool and kind of moved them around to make it a circle tree type look.  Its my first time even using my custom "shade tree" and Im not sure its the best solution but can customize it with a denser shade or not. 

 

Thats a great idea for having different templates for settings, thats awesome I will have to think about how I would want to set all that up at the beginning.  I just have a template for a new plan but nothing super custom like yours.  Can you give me some ideas of what to think about for different lighting adjustments or scenarios you categorize each template for?  Right now I just either keep it to daylight setting or a later afternoon one but have to adjust everything each time I start a new plan. 

 

When you say that you customized chiefs default lights are you talking about the lumens or color tone of the lighting? I feel like this PBR thing for me is like a new frontier.  Ive used chief since 2003 and nothing really surprises me anymore since I know the program pretty well.  This completely new PBR thing has that new car excitement yet frustration with trying to learn all the new gadgets. haha

 

Graham, thank you for your endless amounts of help, I super appreciate it.  I think what it came down to is the files that I am trying to finish are very old, like five chief versions ago so things are behaving irregularly thus causing me great frustration.  I opened a brand new out of the box X11 file and did two trees with the standard grass and a few lights and your suggestions worked regarding the tree shadows!  So thats how I cam up with the conclusion that it wasnt me not knowing or a problem with Chief just a bunch of very old files carrying forward.  Many other glitches not dealing with lights were apparent too so thats when I tested a brand new file and it worked.  So I will go back to trying your lighting method when I complete this backlog of older stuff.

 

Ugh its like 50 something more houses I have to finish...YUCK!  I had 60 something so Im making progress but just want to get to brand new files and brand new designs.

 

I appreciate everyones help!

[Renerabbitt]

28 minutes ago, Designer1 said:

I had 60 something so Im making progress but just want to get to brand new files and brand new designs.

What are you up to? Just updating old plans?

i will be uploading some new PBR tutorials in the next few days

[Designer1]

Yes, I had some designs that were ahead of the times back a few years that have design cues that are popular now.  The designs are good but the interior finishes and interior design are dated so updating those and doing new renderings.  I have to update my website since I havent done that in a couple years.  Im pretty much complete with all the updates just doing landscape and renderings... its feels like Im eating the same thing everyday and although good the first few times Im ready for some new design treats to work on

 

Your glass texture you spoke of in your other post, did you create that yourself?  I want to customize chiefs glass because the current PBR glass just looks like there isnt any glass there to begin with. Lol

[CARMELHILL]

On 3/18/2020 at 11:01 PM, Renerabbitt said:

i will be uploading some new PBR tutorials in the next few days

 

Rene,

Did you ever upload the new PBR tutorials? I just checked your Youtube channel and saw the new Twinmotion videos. Have you abandoned PBR for TM instead? I was hoping to sharpen my PBR skills during this downtime.

[Renerabbitt]

1 hour ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

Rene,

Did you ever upload the new PBR tutorials? I just checked your Youtube channel and saw the new Twinmotion videos. Have you abandoned PBR for TM instead? I was hoping to sharpen my PBR skills during this downtime.

I’m having performance issues with recording 4K battling PBR refresh rates when a material is changed. Video memory causes a problem in the recorder buffering. I can’t seem to figure out how to split my card allocation effectively. It’s proven to be challenging for a scene that I dumped a bunch of hours into. 
I do plan on doing that series though. I’ll make sure and ping you when I do.

[Designer1]

Has anyone run into any color inaccuracies using PBR?  I havent experienced this in Raytracing before.  Its so drastically off, that I use the rainbow tool to make sure the material texture is even the same thing because looking at it its clear its not.  Sure enough identical textures, in the same space for lighting so I cant understand how the colors are so different on the same material.

 

The frustrating thing about when this happens is theres really nothing you can do because had it been a different texture I could just correct it.  This is the correct identical material just showing up different thus making any renderings useless using this view because it looks like you painted incorrectly.

 

Attached is an example of what Im talking about.

[TheKitchenAbode]

10 hours ago, Designer1 said:

Has anyone run into any color inaccuracies using PBR?  I havent experienced this in Raytracing before.  Its so drastically off, that I use the rainbow tool to make sure the material texture is even the same thing because looking at it its clear its not.  Sure enough identical textures, in the same space for lighting so I cant understand how the colors are so different on the same material.

 

The frustrating thing about when this happens is theres really nothing you can do because had it been a different texture I could just correct it.  This is the correct identical material just showing up different thus making any renderings useless using this view because it looks like you painted incorrectly.

 

Attached is an example of what Im talking about.

 

Best if you could post the plan. Could be a lighting issue or a setting.

[CARMELHILL]

Don't surfaces get affected differently when they are in a different room than the one being rendered? I always see a different floor appearance in an adjacent room though a 6 foot arched opening. In the OP image it looks like the railing/stairwell is creating a separate room where the rendering settings and lights are not reaching??????? I assume.

[Kbird1]

12 hours ago, Designer1 said:

Has anyone run into any color inaccuracies using PBR?  I havent experienced this in Raytracing before.  Its so drastically off, that I use the rainbow tool to make sure the material texture is even the same thing because looking at it its clear its not.  Sure enough identical textures, in the same space for lighting so I cant understand how the colors are so different on the same material.

 

The frustrating thing about when this happens is theres really nothing you can do because had it been a different texture I could just correct it.  This is the correct identical material just showing up different thus making any renderings useless using this view because it looks like you painted incorrectly.

 

Attached is an example of what Im talking about.

 

It appears like you have a Stairwell there which in Chief's "Eyes" is another Room , you are facing towards from the large room , which may account for the weird lighting.....not saying it is right , just the way PBR "sees" Rooms sometimes...

 

M.

[TheKitchenAbode]

6 minutes ago, CARMELHILL said:

Don't surfaces get affected differently when they are in a different room than the one being rendered? I always see a different floor appearance in an adjacent room though a 6 foot arched opening. In the OP image it looks like the railing/stairwell is creating a separate room where the rendering settings and lights are not reaching??????? I assume.

 

Yes that can happen, but as can be seen in my example it does not have to be the case. I created a separate room in the corner, one wall is a railing and the other is invisible, the room is set to "open below".

 

In the situation as you describe above one solution is to make your floor a single "floor material region" spanning both rooms. Another technique is to define one of the walls as "no room definition".

[TheKitchenAbode]

Here's an example using a floor material region to eliminate the floor from appearing different between two differently lit rooms. The lighter floor section is my floor material region. The darker floor in the room is the rooms normal floor. With a floor material region the floors lightness transitions as would be expected, no sharp transition across door opening.

[Chrisb222]

49 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

It appears like you have a Stairwell there which in Chief's "Eyes" is another Room , you are facing towards from the large room , which may account for the weird lighting.....not saying it is right , just the way PBR "sees" Rooms sometimes...

 

M.

 

I don't think it's a room lighting issue. Look at the three columns, the one on the right is a different color.

 

I've had that happen too. For example several cabinets all the same material, but when rendered in PBR one of the doors is the wrong color. Weird.

[CARMELHILL]

20 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Here's an example using a floor material region to eliminate the floor from appearing different between two differently lit rooms. The lighter floor section is my floor material region. The darker floor in the room is the rooms normal floor. With a floor material region the floors lightness transitions as would be expected, no sharp transition across door opening.

 

That's really annoying. You shouldn't have to do these little tips, tricks, and hacks. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Just now, CARMELHILL said:

 

That's really annoying. You shouldn't have to do these little tips, tricks, and hacks. 

 

Totally agree, but if things worked as expected then I'd have nothing to do for most of the day.

[TheKitchenAbode]

2 hours ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

That's really annoying. You shouldn't have to do these little tips, tricks, and hacks. 

 

Might as well add one more trick. In the PBR Rendering Technique Options DBX under Global Illumination uncheck Improve Lighting Quality.

[Designer1]

4 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

I don't think it's a room lighting issue. Look at the three columns, the one on the right is a different color.

 

I've had that happen too. For example several cabinets all the same material, but when rendered in PBR one of the doors is the wrong color. Weird.

Chris... thats exactly what I thought!  Thats why I ran around the plan with the rainbow tool clicking on all the columns and wall stucco to make sure its the same color and material type and it was.  I also had this happen on the interiors of another plan with moldings and even paint on the wall being identical but then appearing in PBR as a completely different shade of white.  I wanted to post this stucco example because the color isnt slightly off its a completely different color altogether even though the same material.

 

As for the columns the same exact column and material.  This is what my complaint about PBR is that how can you remedy something that isnt incorrect? (meaning same material and color just not accurate in PBR).

[Designer1]

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Might as well add one more trick. In the PBR Rendering Technique Options DBX under Global Illumination uncheck Improve Lighting Quality.

Hi Graham,

 

Yeah I went back into the plan and tried unchecking that selection in the DBX but it didnt seem to change anything.  Heres the room from that plan.

PBR_Colors.plan

[Alaskan_Son]

15 hours ago, Designer1 said:

Hi Graham,

 

Yeah I went back into the plan and tried unchecking that selection in the DBX but it didnt seem to change anything.  Heres the room from that plan.

PBR_Colors.plan

 

It's definitely related to the room and it's something we run into with PBR all the time and one of the many reason I still prefer Ray Traces.  Chief just treats object differently depending on whether they're in the room with the camera or not.  Even those columns.  The reason they're getting lit differently is because 2 of them are facing the exterior and one is facing the interior and as such, Chief is treating them as belonging to different rooms.  A similar thing commonly happens with other objects such as doors depending on which room Chief sees them as belonging to.  Anyway, don't have time to offer much in the way of solutions right now, but wanted to at least point a couple things out.  

[Designer1]

Thanks Michael, I didnt think about the columns positioning towards the rooms.  Maybe I will group select them together as an architectural block and then put them back and maybe since they will be one unit the colors will be consistent.  Yes, I agree the raytraces are so nice but I SO love the PBRs speed its amazing.  Hopefully in the next release of Chief the PBR can have some improvements to increase texture accuracy and a few other things.

 

Thanks for pointing a few things out I will look into that.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Took a look at the plan. The main issue is that the 2nd floor room is defined as a "Porch", change the room to say "Unspecified" and the walls and ceilings will light properly. There are a lot of other issues in this plan but that is the main reason for the different wall color depth. Also, as Michael suggested, rotate the columns in the window to have the same orientation.

 

[CARMELHILL]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:34 PM, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Might as well add one more trick. In the PBR Rendering Technique Options DBX under Global Illumination uncheck Improve Lighting Quality.

 

I was watching a PBR Youtube video and I could have sworn they said check the Improve Lighting Quality box, I think by Rennerrabit. Why do you say "uncheck"?

[TheKitchenAbode]

8 hours ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

I was watching a PBR Youtube video and I could have sworn they said check the Improve Lighting Quality box, I think by Rennerrabit. Why do you say "uncheck"?

 

I just suggested it because it does at times eliminate that problem where one room shows a distinct difference in lighting as we have been discussing. Personally not sure why they have that option, if I'm PBR'ing why would I want "poor" light quality, I always have it checked to on.

[Designer1]

Thanks so much Graham for figuring this out!  Geez now that youve found out what makes the PBR so unpredictable Im definitely going to spend more time looking at changing room labels if I come across this again.  The other strange thing is I never thought that the column facing a certain direction would ever make a difference given its identical on all four sides.  This is another items Im going to be paying attention to as I didnt think it made any difference.

 

I appreciate everyones time and help...thank you!

[TheKitchenAbode]

6 hours ago, Designer1 said:

Thanks so much Graham for figuring this out!  Geez now that youve found out what makes the PBR so unpredictable Im definitely going to spend more time looking at changing room labels if I come across this again.  The other strange thing is I never thought that the column facing a certain direction would ever make a difference given its identical on all four sides.  This is another items Im going to be paying attention to as I didnt think it made any difference.

 

I appreciate everyones time and help...thank you!

 

You're welcome. Just a note concerning rooms, I would not delay in having your rooms properly assigned to only when you encounter a problem. Rooms are fundamental to CA's operation and not having them properly defined could lead to all kinds of unpredictable behaviors. In your situation the problem likely relates to how CA treats the sun, the stairwell was defined as an interior room open below, the 2nd floor was defined as a porch, suspect CA saw the former as being inside the structure while the later as being outside.

 

Another note concerning your plan, I noticed that you had several exterior walls on the 2nd floor that were rotated so the exterior side was on the interior and some of your walls where at different heights. These are also examples of things that can result in unpredictable behavior, as an example, when CA auto builds roofs it does not use the actual wall height for positioning it, it uses the height as defined in the rooms DBX, not the individual walls.

 

Keep in mind that PBR'ing is mainly a final rendering process and it requires all the primary rooms, roofs and foundations to be in place and properly defined for it to generate predictable result.