JJohnson Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 May an exterior door that swings out, that is not the designated egress door, have a landing dropped more that 1 1/2" , other than a door into a garage ? I would like to be able to have more of a drop down at an outward swinging stacking door set.. Has anyone needed to have this clarified, and if so what was the result ? This is a link to one discussion I came across. Building Code Forum - Exterior Door Swing 0 Landings Attached is a pdf of the relevant pages from the 2016 CRC Code Page 110, 111 CRC.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Nothing in the code precludes it in my opinion and reading. The mention of door swinging out over stairs and landings is in regard to required egress doors and in regard to doors swinging out over stairs where no landing is present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Just read through that other discussion you posted and there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that it’s fine. Not sure I’ve seen any disagreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 I run into this all the time around here. I must have all doors swing in or provide code landings or stoops. There are sliders that look like French doors if your clients don't want the inswing. then you wont need the 1 1/2" step down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 Max. 1" step down if the door swings out and it must be a landing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 R311.3.1 Floor elevations at the required egress doors. Landings or finished floors at the required egress door shall be not more than 11/2 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. Exception: The landing or floor on the exterior side shall be not more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor. Where exterior landings or floors serving the required egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7. R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors. Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided with landings or floors not more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold. Exception: A top landing is not required where a stairway of not more than two risers is located on the exterior side of the door provided that the door does not swing over the stairway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 13 hours ago, Greg_NY61 said: 13 hours ago, Greg_NY61 said: R311.3.1.... more than 11/2 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. ..... R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors. Doors other than the required egress door shall be providedwith landing..... I think the plan check comment is a max. 1" step down (difference between f.f. and landing). ..... I think the 1-1/2" is from top of threshold which might be 1/2" higher than f.f. . ...... What is the difference between 3.1 and 3.2? If I have 10 exterior doors, are some required and some not required? Now I am getting in the weeds. Sometimes I feel I need a law degree to interpret the code book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 4, 2019 Author Share Posted August 4, 2019 8 hours ago, dshall said: I think the plan check comment is a max. 1" step down (difference between f.f. and landing). ..... I think the 1-1/2" is from top of threshold which might be 1/2" higher than f.f. . ...... What is the difference between 3.1 and 3.2? If I have 10 exterior doors, are some required and some not required? Now I am getting in the weeds. Sometimes I feel I need a law degree to interpret the code book. I know what you mean. 3.1 refers clearly to a required "egress door", and 3.2 refers to all other exterior doors. I may ask the building officials for clarification. There seems to be differing opinions on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 4, 2019 Author Share Posted August 4, 2019 On 8/3/2019 at 3:09 PM, Alaskan_Son said: Just read through that other discussion you posted and there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that it’s fine. Not sure I’ve seen any disagreement. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesVolz Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 On 8/3/2019 at 4:42 PM, JJohnson said: May an exterior door that swings out, that is not the designated egress door, have a landing dropped more that 1 1/2" , other than a door into a garage ? Why "other than a door into a garage?"? On 8/3/2019 at 5:06 PM, Alaskan_Son said: Nothing in the code precludes it in my opinion and reading. Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold). It is not safe otherwise and should become a future change/clarification in the IRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 12 hours ago, CharlesVolz said: Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold)... Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I think the key is: When is a Door not a required EGRESS DOOR ? Basically when it's not the only legal means of egress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. R311.2 Egress door. Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) were measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 3 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said: I think the key is: When is a Door not a required EGRESS DOOR ? Basically when it's not the only legal means of egress. I have a feeling if I have: 1- 3' front door that swings into the hous and 8 swinging French glass doors that swing out over a step down greater than 1-1/2" the plans reviewer will call me out on it..... wait..... they have ..... I am going to need to educate them ....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 17 hours ago, CharlesVolz said: Why "other than a door into a garage?"? Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold). It is not safe otherwise and should become a future change/clarification in the IRC. I am mistaken about "other than a door into a garage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Greg_NY61 said: R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. R311.2 Egress door. Not less than one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than 32 inches (813 mm) were measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort. Anything on landing heights ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 Finally something definitive, from Marin County CA. The entire document Code clarification ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 R311.3 Floors and landings at exterior doors. There shall be a landing or floor on each side of each exterior door. The width of each landing shall be not less than the door served. Every landing shall have a dimension of not less than 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. The slope at exterior landings shall not exceed 1/4 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2 percent). Exception: Exterior balconies less than 60 square feet (5.6 m2) and only accessible from a door are permitted to have a landing less than 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJohnson Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 Well, lets not go overboard Link to article in Fine Home Building Mag Stepping through an outward opening door onto a dropped landing may be somewhat dangerous, but more so than say stepping into and out of a bathtub ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorgearaya Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Hello, the answer to the question is no. Whether or not the code official interprets the code that way The code restricts it where it states “provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor” The reasoning behind it is that one should not expect a drop when exiting an out swing door I would also require the outswing door to be protected from the weather when in its open position via an awning. outswing doors also create a flashing issue with weep screeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 20 minutes ago, jorgearaya said: Hello, the answer to the question is no. Whether or not the code official interprets the code that way The code restricts it where it states “provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor” The reasoning behind it is that one should not expect a drop when exiting an out swing door I would also require the outswing door to be protected from the weather when in its open position via an awning. outswing doors also create a flashing issue with weep screeds. This is why I never use outswing doors in any of my plans, even if the homeowner wants it. I'll go with am sliding French door in those cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 In most cases homes do not have outswing doors for several reasons. Security Weather protection Convenience ....... Other occupancy groups generally have more than 10 occupants and are required to have out-swinging egress doors. It is those doors that the code is referring to and their location can be critical. Distance of travel in a hospital, hotel, condominium, apartment building, or many other commercial buildings may require multiple egress doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesVolz Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I had a military client who wanted out-swing exterior doors for security reasons. "A bad guy cannot kick it in as easily." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 8 hours ago, CharlesVolz said: I had a military client who wanted out-swing exterior doors for security reasons. "A bad guy cannot kick it in as easily." But the lock is latch is easier to jimmy open and the hinges have to be NRP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 2 17 hours ago, JJohnson said: Well, lets not go overboard Link to article in Fine Home Building Mag Stepping through an outward opening door onto a dropped landing may be somewhat dangerous, but more so than say stepping into and out of a bathtub ? This picture is from 2003 code. Now we go by 2015 and I don't see that anymore other than the code I posted. There is one more code portion intended for landings: R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided that the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm). Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided that a door does not swing over the stairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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