JJohnson

Exterior door swing & landings

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May an exterior door that swings out, that is not the designated egress door, have a landing

dropped more that 1 1/2" , other than a door into a garage ?

 

I would like to be able to have more of a drop down at an outward swinging 

stacking door set..

 

Has anyone needed to have this clarified, and if so what was the result ?

 

This is a link to one discussion I came across.

 

Building Code Forum - Exterior Door Swing 0 Landings

 

Attached is a pdf of the relevant pages from the 2016 CRC Code

 

Page 110, 111 CRC.pdf

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Nothing in the code precludes it in my opinion and reading.  The mention of door swinging out over stairs and landings is in regard to required egress doors an in regard to doors swinging out over stairs where no landing is present.  

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Just read through that other discussion you posted and there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that it’s fine.  Not sure I’ve seen any disagreement.  

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I run into this all the time around here. I must have all doors swing in or provide code landings or stoops. There are sliders that look like French doors if your clients don't want the inswing. then you wont need the 1 1/2" step down.

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Max. 1" step down if the door swings out and it must be a landing.

 

  • Upvote 1

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R311.3.1 Floor elevations at the required egress doors.
Landings or finished floors at the required egress door
shall be not more than 11/2 inches (38 mm) lower than the
top of the threshold.
Exception: The landing or floor on the exterior side
shall be not more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the
top of the threshold provided the door does not swing
over the landing or floor.
Where exterior landings or floors serving the required
egress door are not at grade, they shall be provided with
access to grade by means of a ramp in accordance with
Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7.


R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors.
Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided
with landings or floors not more than 73/4 inches
(196 mm) below the top of the threshold.
Exception: A top landing is not required where a stairway
of not more than two risers is located on the exterior
side of the door provided that the door does not
swing over the stairway.

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13 hours ago, Greg_NY61 said:
13 hours ago, Greg_NY61 said:

R311.3.1.... more than 11/2 inches (38 mm) lower than the
top of the threshold.
.....


R311.3.2 Floor elevations for other exterior doors.  Doors other than the required egress door shall be provided
with landing.....

 

I think the plan check comment is a max. 1" step down (difference between f.f. and landing). .....  I think the 1-1/2" is from top of threshold which might be 1/2" higher than f.f. . ......

 

What is the difference between 3.1 and 3.2?  If I have 10 exterior doors,  are some required and some not required?  Now I am getting in the weeds.

 

Sometimes I feel  I need a law degree to interpret the code book.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

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8 hours ago, dshall said:

 

I think the plan check comment is a max. 1" step down (difference between f.f. and landing). .....  I think the 1-1/2" is from top of threshold which might be 1/2" higher than f.f. . ......

 

What is the difference between 3.1 and 3.2?  If I have 10 exterior doors,  are some required and some not required?  Now I am getting in the weeds.

 

Sometimes I feel  I need a law degree to interpret the code book.

 

 

 

I know what you mean.  3.1 refers clearly to a required "egress door", and 3.2 refers to all other exterior doors.

I may ask the building officials for clarification.  There seems to be differing opinions on this matter.

 

 

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On 8/3/2019 at 3:09 PM, Alaskan_Son said:

Just read through that other discussion you posted and there seems to be a pretty clear consensus that it’s fine.  Not sure I’ve seen any disagreement.  

 

Exactly

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On 8/3/2019 at 4:42 PM, JJohnson said:

May an exterior door that swings out, that is not the designated egress door, have a landing

dropped more that 1 1/2" , other than a door into a garage ?

Why "other than a door into a garage?"?

 

On 8/3/2019 at 5:06 PM, Alaskan_Son said:

Nothing in the code precludes it in my opinion and reading.

Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold). It is not safe otherwise and should become a future change/clarification in the IRC.

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12 hours ago, CharlesVolz said:

Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold)...

 

Totally agree. 

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I think the key is:

  • When is a Door not a required EGRESS DOOR ?

Basically when it's not the only legal means of egress.

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R311.1 Means of egress.

Dwellings shall be provided with a
means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of
vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the
dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel
through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly
into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public
way.

R311.2

Egress door. Not less than one egress door shall be
provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be
side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than
32 inches (813 mm) were measured between the face of the
door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad).
The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78
inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the
threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be
required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress
doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without
the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

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3 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

I think the key is:

  • When is a Door not a required EGRESS DOOR ?

Basically when it's not the only legal means of egress.

 

I have a feeling if I have:

 

1- 3' front door that swings into the hous

 and

8 swinging French glass doors that swing out over a step down greater than 1-1/2" the plans reviewer will call me out on it.....  wait.....  they have .....  I am going to need to educate them .......  

  • Upvote 1

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17 hours ago, CharlesVolz said:

Why "other than a door into a garage?"?

 

Agree. But I prefer that a door does not swing out over a floor or landing with more than the 1 1/2" drop floor-to-floor (regardless of threshold). It is not safe otherwise and should become a future change/clarification in the IRC.

 

I am mistaken about "other than a door into a garage".

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1 hour ago, Greg_NY61 said:

R311.1 Means of egress.

Dwellings shall be provided with a
means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of
vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the
dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel
through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly
into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public
way.

R311.2

Egress door. Not less than one egress door shall be
provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be
side-hinged, and shall provide a clear width of not less than
32 inches (813 mm) were measured between the face of the
door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad).
The clear height of the door opening shall be not less than 78
inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the
threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be
required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress
doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without
the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

 

Anything on landing heights ???

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R311.3 Floors and landings at exterior doors.

There shall
be a landing or floor on each side of each exterior door. The
width of each landing shall be not less than the door served.
Every landing shall have a dimension of not less than 36
inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. The
slope at exterior landings shall not exceed 1/4 unit vertical in
12 units horizontal (2 percent).
Exception: Exterior balconies less than 60 square feet (5.6
m2) and only accessible from a door are permitted to have
a landing less than 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the
direction of travel.

 

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Hello, the answer to the question is no.

Whether or not the code official interprets the code that way

The code restricts it where it states “provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor”

The reasoning behind it is that one should not expect a drop when exiting an out swing door

 

I would also require the outswing door to be protected from the weather when in its open position via an awning.

 

outswing doors also create a flashing issue with weep screeds.

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20 minutes ago, jorgearaya said:

Hello, the answer to the question is no.

Whether or not the code official interprets the code that way

The code restricts it where it states “provided the door does not swing over the landing or floor”

The reasoning behind it is that one should not expect a drop when exiting an out swing door

 

I would also require the outswing door to be protected from the weather when in its open position via an awning.

 

outswing doors also create a flashing issue with weep screeds.

This is why I never use outswing doors in any of my plans, even if the homeowner wants it. I'll go with am sliding French door in those cases

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In most cases homes do not have outswing doors for several reasons.

  • Security
  • Weather protection
  • Convenience 
  • .......

 

Other occupancy groups generally have more than 10 occupants and are required to have out-swinging egress doors.  It is those doors that the code is referring to and their location can be critical.  Distance of travel in a hospital, hotel, condominium, apartment building, or many other commercial buildings may require multiple egress doors.  

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I had a military client who wanted out-swing exterior doors for security reasons. "A bad guy cannot kick it in as easily."

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8 hours ago, CharlesVolz said:

I had a military client who wanted out-swing exterior doors for security reasons. "A bad guy cannot kick it in as easily."

But the lock is latch is easier to jimmy open and the hinges have to be NRP.

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17 hours ago, JJohnson said:

Well, lets not go overboard :o

 

379758867_Weirddoorwithdroppedlanding.thumb.PNG.ad71431f178d4bc4cbf1ae8f142bcfbf.PNG

 

Link to article in Fine Home Building Mag

 

Stepping through an outward opening door onto

a dropped landing may be somewhat dangerous,

but more so than say stepping into and out of a 

bathtub ? 

 

 

This picture is from 2003 code.  Now we go by 2015 and I don't see that anymore other than the code I posted. There is one more code portion intended for landings:

 

R311.7.6 Landings for stairways.

There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The
width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not
less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes
other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided
that the depth at the walk line and the total area is
not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to
the required landing width. Where the stairway has a
straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not
less than 36 inches (914 mm).
Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top
of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an
enclosed garage, provided that a door does not swing
over the stairs.

 

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