Manipulating materials and lighting help


Alisa_Dorado
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I've been using chief since 2015, completely self-taught with the webinars and youtube videos. But I can't seem to master the renderings. The designer I work with wants the renderings to look amazing, knock your socks off. She doesn't like the shadows, or how the light reacts to the material finishes. She wants the cabinet finish to look exactly like the cabinet finish in real life, she wants metal finishes to look exactly like metal finishes in real life.  I exported the file of the most recent drawing and rendering. I've also included screenshots of my rendering presets and final renderings. I honestly have no idea how to make these renderings look exactly the same as they would in real life. In my opinion, that isn't possible. But maybe it is? 

Please help, I need tips, advice or information to give her about the limitations of the software. 

Thanks

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  • Alisa_Dorado changed the title to Manipulating materials and lighting help

Making things look exactly like they do in real life cannot be done on a computer and managing those expectations should be part of any good designer's communication with their client. And what if you did get a material to look 'exactly' right on your computer's monitor, what happens when the client or designer looks at it on theirs? All monitors are different, all lighting is different and again those expectations should be managed from the beginning of any relationship.

 

Given all that, check out this thread for some really awesome renders using Chief's Physically Based Rendering engine. Are any good enough for your designer? If so there's still a ton to learn before getting the PBR engine down. If not then perhaps look into something like Lumion and have your designer pay for it...:)

 

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Thank you. I have X9 and would need approval from the owner of the firm to order X10. I have been following that thread and have incorporated some of the techniques discussed. I thought my renderings looked amazing but the designer said they were awful.

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5 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

I thought my renderings looked amazing but the designer said they were awful.

Ouch - that might be a tough nut to crack but if you can find something concrete that the designer does like as a baseline you might have a chance of pleasing her - might.

 

Or maybe she has something that she thinks looks amazing so you at least have a chance of pleasing her??

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She is difficult. I have to pull and pry information from her. After years of working together, I finally found out that she doesn't like shadows. She thinks since she doesn't know the program she can't tell me "what to do". I'm looking through other posts to find more tips. 

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Given the look your designer is requesting you will require a much more powerful rendering engine than CA's built in Ray Tracer. The next level up in CA is their X10 PBR rendering process. I have found this to be capable of superior results over Ray Trace but it does have it's own limitations and it is still in need of further development. For true realism you are going to need a dedicated renderer such as Lumion.

 

Here's the best to-date that I have been able to achieve with X10 PBR.

5bd22606ae044_LP_Kitchen_PhotoMatch.thumb.jpg.ff634b6912322c5b6924573e4870acd3.jpg

 

 

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The problem is most likely your designer's difficult nature and not the software you are using and best of luck with that. I warn my clients and have my contractors warn their clients that this is not HGTV and we don't have teams of designers working behind the scenes to create life like renderings but we'll do as good a job as we can to get materials as close as we can to what they look like in real life but please remember it's a computer and we can only get so close.

 

That starts with the other designer and can be reiterated by you but it sounds like there is a some standard that you may never be able to reach - no matter how good you get at whatever software you choose..

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13 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

I finally found out that she doesn't like shadows

That's a tough one...shadows are part of the real world.:) With that being said, shadows in CA can sometimes be too heavy until the lighting is dialed in - that's some of the hard part.

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Yes it sounds like you have a tough nut to crack there ( excuse the pun)  but She is not being very Realistic and doesn't understand the limitations of CA-X9. Most people are now Using PBR in X10 as it is faster ( almost instant ...secs vs minutes ) to see the results of your Changes , so the $695 upgrade cost is likely worth it in time alone for the business, but i'd recommend She keeps the SSA Current so you always have the latest features. Good thing about upgrading now would be that you will like get X11 next year Free due to 1yr SSA coming with an Upgrade purchase.

 

Other Options would be to have a Professional Render do the Renders for Her for each project but that is not necessarily cheap but People Like Jintu (link below) use Lumion and other Photo realistic Rendering Engines to produce very nice Images. There is definitely an Art to it, and a steep learning curve , it's definitely not a click the button and your have instant Photo Realistic , beautifully lit Images for Clients to look at.

 

Your Plan doesn't include the Textures ( use backup entire Plan to Zipfile Instead ) so I couldn't have a look in PBR at it.....and show you....

 

http://www.jintudesigns.com/interior-renderings-home3.html

his pricing page.... it should convince your boss to get X10 along with Graham's Image above.... :)

http://www.jintudesigns.com/3d-rendering-prices.html

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59 minutes ago, Ridge_Runner said:

That's a tough one...shadows are part of the real world.

Yes/ Haha they are. I toned some of the shadows down in the ray trace views so they're not so strong. But still too much for her taste. I will turn all shadows off and slowly add them back to control the intensity

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28 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

She is not being very Realistic and doesn't understand the limitations of CA-X9. Most people are now Using PBR in X10 as it is faster ( almost instant ...secs vs minutes ) to see the results of your Changes , so the $695 upgrade cost is likely worth it in time alone for the business, but i'd recommend She keeps the SSA Current so you always have the latest features. Good thing about upgrading now would be that you will like get X11 next year Free due to 1yr SSA coming with an Upgrade purchase.

I saw this in the PBR thread. I'm very excited about it! :) I planned on requesting the upgrade but the firm is wanting to move to 2020 or AutoKitchen. I am trying to convince them to stay with Chief as it is already an investment that they've made and it can do everything and more than the other programs can do. At the end of the day, CA is a tool and training and learning is the main key to getting renderings exactly, or almost exactly as they want.  

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7 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

but the firm is wanting to move to 2020 or AutoKitchen

 

There is a number of Threads here about 2020 and Revit...worth you doing a Search and some reading , many , like MarkMc left 2020 behind and use CA exclusively now doing Kitchens.....he'd likely even be willing to do some Training sessions with you....

 

@MarkMc

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13 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

I planned on requesting the upgrade but the firm is wanting to move to 2020 or AutoKitchen. I am trying to convince them to stay with Chief as it is already an investment that they've made and it can do everything and more than the other programs can do. At the end of the day, CA is a tool and training and learning is the main key to getting renderings exactly, or almost exactly as they want. 

Neither 2020 nor AutoKitchen can render better than Chief in PBR. IF they want to get super renderings they have to invest in a dedicated rendering program as others have stated, then pay for training, wait for learning curve and buy better hardware. AND still put up with shadows if they want realism.

(FWIW I've been doing kitchens since 2000, own 2020, bought Autokitchen and returned it in less than 24 hrs.) I use Chief and not looking back.

6 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

he'd likely even be willing to do some Training sessions with you....

For training in renderings with Chief I'm not your guy- and I've gotten to where I only do training for clients except the whatever I give back here. Renderings in Chief try Graham-Kitchen Adobe- he might. They might be happier working with a rendering specialist for that part -ReneRabbit is one on the forum uses TheaRender.

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9 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

Neither 2020 nor AutoKitchen can render better than Chief in PBR. IF they want to get super renderings they have to invest in a dedicated rendering program as others have stated, then pay for training, wait for learning curve and buy better hardware. AND still put up with shadows if they want realism.

(FWIW I've been doing kitchens since 2000, own 2020, bought Autokitchen and returned it in less than 24 hrs.) I use Chief and not looking back.

This is great information. 

Every response has literally helped me lift my head a little higher in confidence that what I've been doing is good and worth the struggle of learning it with limited direct support. And now I know that we are already using the best software and should continue to use it while upgrading our hardware to be able to handle X10.

Thank you!!

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12 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

Every response has literally helped me lift my head a little higher in confidence

In the notfornuttin department. Getting a RT out of X9 of a room with a ceiling like that is a bear. I've never been a great RT guy (why I love PBR) but you did a decent job with what you had IMO.

 

Below are a couple of a kitchen I did with wood ceiling and beams (mine didn't even have lights in the ceiling.

From top to bottom-First one is the best RT I could do in X9-spent at least two days at it, then a PBR, one of the earliest ones I did and before they improved it, was during the beta, then a very quick Thea render done by a pro who had taken pity on me so this was just a quickie for him to show me some settings, I know he does better work but FWIW he also ran this on two computers simultaneously and had a mess of special textures and effects at his disposal (X10 beta came out shortly after that session so I've given up on learning Thea), finally one that was done with no sun and no shadows back then-might as well use crayons. 

 

green RT_9.png

Green Chamo 4.png

Green Thea.png

Green No shadows Phys.jpg

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8 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

but you did a decent job with what you had IMO.

From a pro like you, thank you! It is hard not to take harsh critiques personally and so your compliment has lifted my spirits. 

Those images are great at showing the difference between the different versions and I think will be a great tool in persuading the owner to upgrade.

 

Thank you again!

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29 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

might as well use crayons.

 

:) I like that !   wondered why you included that one as I clicked through all 4 shots....

 

If your Boss doesn't like Shadows one thing to do, that may help, in X9 ( or X10) is to turn Off Bloom and turn Ambient Occlusion down to 18-20% in the camera view, AO in particular the way Chief handles it, I think makes the Corners look too Dark and kinda weird especially in STD View...

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

From a pro like you, thank you! It is hard not to take harsh critiques personally and so your compliment has lifted my spirits. 

Those images are great at showing the difference between the different versions and I think will be a great tool in persuading the owner to upgrade.

 

Thank you again!

 

Don't forget to Post your "Entire Plan", there are 15+ textures missing) so others like Mark , Rene and Graham can have a play if they have time and show you what x10 and PBR is capable of...

 

M.

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3 minutes ago, Alisa_Dorado said:

It exported at 37MB, even zipped. Ran it through another compression program and it went down to 33. Any tips to get it smaller?

 

Do a Save -As Plan and then delete stuff in Areas that are not needed for the Kitchen Shot ...

 

Eg:  in unseen bathrooms or exterior landscape Items or , stuff on the Upper floor or Basement if there is either etc.

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