Let's PBR

[TheKitchenAbode]

2 minutes ago, AlvarD said:

Thank you SO much Graham! That did the trick. I don't get exactly what you got (my shadows under the porch are stronger than yours), but it's very close, and MUCH better than with the default PBR settings. 

 

 

You are welcome. I just checked mine and I added one more area light between your two. That explains why my shadows are a bit softer. I also have the saturation turned down to 10% which could also have a small impact.

[rispgiu]

Any tricks for the sky? mine always ends up dark and grey

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, rispgiu said:

Any tricks for the sky? mine always ends up dark and grey

 

That seems typical if you have no background .......is that your case ? 

 

I have been using Sky3 lately as it seems to impart the least colour to the lighting in the scene

 

 

[rispgiu]

46 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

That seems typical if you have no background .......is that your case ? 

 

I have been using Sky3 lately as it seems to impart the least colour to the lighting in the scene

 

 

Hello Mick,

No I have a background, but the sky always seems to be to dark to me. 

[AlvarD]

What I've found is the brightness of the sky depends on the strength of the sunlight. From my earlier posts, you can see the strong shadows you can get on exterior PBR shots, and how you can mitigate them with controlling the strength of the sunlight and the addition of 3D "point fill" lights. If you want a brighter sky, the sunlight has to be stronger and the fill lights have to be proportionally increased in strength.

 

In the first shot, I have the sunlight set at 1 lux, and 3 fill lights set at 200 lumens. Because the sunlight is weak, the sky is dark.

 

 

Without the fill lights, you get very strong shadows, like the pic below:

 

The next pic shows a lighter sky, thanks to a 26000 lux sunlight, but in order to have soft shadows and compensate for the very strong sun, I had to increase the fill light strength to 450,000 lumens!! 

 

With the same 26000 lux sun and without the fill lights, the shadows are stronger:

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

3 hours ago, AlvarD said:

What I've found is the brightness of the sky depends on the strength of the sunlight. From my earlier posts, you can see the strong shadows you can get on exterior PBR shots, and how you can mitigate them with controlling the strength of the sunlight and the addition of 3D "point fill" lights. If you want a brighter sky, the sunlight has to be stronger and the fill lights have to be proportionally increased in strength.

 

 

Good examples demonstrating the sun intensity effect and the technique of using 3D area lights to soften the shadows. It's unfortunate that there is no direct way to independently control the background intensity. While you are experimenting with this, you might find it of interest to set up several more exterior cameras viewing the other sides of your house, especially the side that is exposed to the direct sunlight. I suspect with the higher sun lux setting that side will be completely over exposed. The same issue can occur if you also have interior camera views, the sun setting for the exterior may be too much for your interior views.

 

Another technique to control the background is to get the background JPEG and load it into a photo editor, make several versions with the exposure adjusted up and down and then import them into CA as backgrounds. If your sun setting is low and the standard background is too dark then change the background for one of the backgrounds that you saved with increased exposure. If your sun setting is high and the standard background is too bright then change it for one of the saved backgrounds with lower exposure.

[HumbleChief]

4 hours ago, AlvarD said:

What I've found is the brightness of the sky depends on the strength of the sunlight. From my earlier posts, you can see the strong shadows you can get on exterior PBR shots, and how you can mitigate them with controlling the strength of the sunlight and the addition of 3D "point fill" lights. If you want a brighter sky, the sunlight has to be stronger and the fill lights have to be proportionally increased in strength.

 

In the first shot, I have the sunlight set at 1 lux, and 3 fill lights set at 200 lumens. Because the sunlight is weak, the sky is dark.

 

 

Without the fill lights, you get very strong shadows, like the pic below:

 

The next pic shows a lighter sky, thanks to a 26000 lux sunlight, but in order to have soft shadows and compensate for the very strong sun, I had to increase the fill light strength to 450,000 lumens!! 

 

With the same 26000 lux sun and without the fill lights, the shadows are stronger:

 

That's very helpful Alvar. I couldn't get the sky to behave with those harsh shadows. Wish there was another, simpler method to get a lighter sky and softer shadows.

[AlvarD]

2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

That's very helpful Alvar. I couldn't get the sky to behave with those harsh shadows. Wish there was another, simpler method to get a lighter sky and softer shadows.

 

Larry, I agree 100% with you. Having to play these games with sun intensity, fill lights, and even the idea that Graham had about different exposure backgrounds, while good to have as current options, would be GREAT if chief made it easier with more built-in controls.  Let's see if there are any further X10 updates to PBR. If not hopefully X11 will have them! 

[HumbleChief]

38 minutes ago, AlvarD said:

 

Larry, I agree 100% with you. Having to play these games with sun intensity, fill lights, and even the idea that Graham had about different exposure backgrounds, while good to have as current options, would be GREAT if chief made it easier with more built-in controls.  Let's see if there are any further X10 updates to PBR. If not hopefully X11 will have them! 

X-10 is done. X-11 is almost in the can as shown to users at the latest User Academy 

Chief will sometimes create a great feature then ignore it so hopefully PBR is different and they will continue to make more user friendly.

[Kbird1]

19 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

X-10 is done. X-11 is almost in the can as shown to users at the latest User Academy 

 

Yes I was surprised to read last week that there will be no more Updates for X10 , which really surprised me as I don't think it is really "Done" , still seems to be lots of little niggles and PBR I thought was a "Big One" , as noted above with exteriors being a mess still in particular.

 

M.

[HumbleChief]

1 hour ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Yes I was surprised to read last week that there will be no more Updates for X10 , which really surprised me as I don't think it is really "Done" , still seems to be lots of little niggles and PBR I thought was a "Big One" , as noted above with exteriors being a mess still in particular.

 

M.

Yeah PBR may not quite be 'done' but that's very standard for Chief as a company to release new features, leave important things out, and move on the next great new feature. I think PBR might be a different story as they are in the business of selling pretty pictures (that is not a knock on the company) so I can see lots of investment in same but the things that don't work currently in X10's PBR will be either ignored completely in favor of a new feature (no accusation without the basis of using Chief for 20 years) or addressed in X11.

 

For example I was showing an Architect friend Chief's new PBR feature and the 4 x 4's in the ceiling over the kitchen turned a bright white and looked like they were luminescent. I know there's a very involved work around because I came across this before but I simply don't use PBR for this reason. It's simply not finished. Hopefully they will improve PBR in X11 - for those who use it more than I.

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, AlvarD said:

 

Larry, I agree 100% with you. Having to play these games with sun intensity, fill lights, and even the idea that Graham had about different exposure backgrounds, while good to have as current options, would be GREAT if chief made it easier with more built-in controls.  Let's see if there are any further X10 updates to PBR. If not hopefully X11 will have them! 

Messed around with your scene for 20 min..added some bump and normals maps, changed a few settings..easy to burn hours on this type of thing

 

[Renerabbitt]

1 minute ago, HumbleChief said:

Yeah PBR may not quite be 'done' but that's very standard for Chief as a company to release new features, leave important things out, and move on the next great new feature. I think PBR might be a different story as they are in the business of selling pretty pictures (that is not a knock on the company) so I can see lots of investment in same but the things that don't work currently in X10's PBR will be either ignored completely in favor of a new feature (no accusation without the basis of using Chief for 20 years) or addressed in X11.

 

For example I was showing an Architect friend Chief's new PBR feature and the 4 x 4's in the ceiling over the kitchen turned a bright white and looked like they were luminescent. I know there's a very involved work around because I came across this before but I simply don't use PBR for this reason. It's simply not finished. Hopefully they will improve PBR in X11 - for those who use it more than I.

not too huge of a workaround, make sure the beams dont break a plane to daylight

[HumbleChief]

10 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

not too huge of a workaround, make sure the beams dont break a plane to daylight

Rene you're always very helpful and I should have added I'm not really interested in fixing the things that should not need fixing....Been through the simple fix you allude to and HOURS later I got it looking OK with crazy work arounds - that simply shouldn't be needed IMO. Don't know how to put this as gently as possible but I don't want to fix it  - it's not worth my time.

 

EDIT: and why wouldn't little problems like shown above with a sky that's unusable and light leaks be addressed in X10?

[Renerabbitt]

2 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

Rene you're always very helpful and I should have added I'm not really interested in fixing the things that should not need fixing....Been through the simple fix you allude to and HOURS later I got it looking OK with crazy work arounds - that simply shouldn't be needed IMO. Don't know how to put this as gently as possible but I don't want to fix it  - it's not worth my time.

completely agree, I use PBR sparingly for the sake of my hair staying brown.

[HumbleChief]

1 minute ago, Renerabbitt said:

completely agree, I use PBR sparingly for the sake of my hair staying brown.

exactly... taking nothing from those who have become more than proficient - and super helpful!!!

[AlvarD]

1 hour ago, Renerabbitt said:

Messed around with your scene for 20 min..added some bump and normals maps, changed a few settings..easy to burn hours on this type of thing

 

Rene, that looks great. I haven't played around with bump/normal maps much, but your render is the first time I'm seeing the board-and-batten siding look realistic. I see the lap siding and the metal roof also looks better. I've only been using Chief for one year and have a lot to learn, thus appreciate the tips from the experts! Of course, like you and other have echoed, it's easy to spend so many hours trying to come up with the perfect (or just better) results. That is always the challenge, as we all have limited time to invest in those explorations... 

 

If you don't mind giving me a little more info on which maps you used for the vertical board-and-batten, that is something I would certainly like to know more about. Thanks! 

[HumbleChief]

30 minutes ago, AlvarD said:

... your render is the first time I'm seeing the board-and-batten siding look realistic.

Yes, very well done..

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Renerabbitt said:

I use PBR sparingly for the sake of my hair staying brown.

 

Ahhhh  ..... this explains ALOT ..... I was only "Salt and Pepper " in January and now look like I have a Grey Beanie on   ...be aware PBR doesn't only effect the Head too  

 

.

 

[Kbird1]

51 minutes ago, AlvarD said:

If you don't mind giving me a little more info on which maps you used for the vertical board-and-batten, that is something I would certainly like to know more about. Thanks! 

 

You could try the B&B Batten Library I made in the Symbols Forum...it uses a "Framing Material" to generate 3D B&B just make sure to have Framing on in ALL views to see it....

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/16852-board-and-batten-library/

 

there is also a Rainscreen Batten library done the same way

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/16723-rainscreen-batten-library/

 

M.

[Renerabbitt]

7 hours ago, AlvarD said:

Rene, that looks great. I haven't played around with bump/normal maps much, but your render is the first time I'm seeing the board-and-batten siding look realistic. I see the lap siding and the metal roof also looks better. I've only been using Chief for one year and have a lot to learn, thus appreciate the tips from the experts! Of course, like you and other have echoed, it's easy to spend so many hours trying to come up with the perfect (or just better) results. That is always the challenge, as we all have limited time to invest in those explorations... 

 

If you don't mind giving me a little more info on which maps you used for the vertical board-and-batten, that is something I would certainly like to know more about. Thanks! 

normals/bumps/ambient occlusion can really bring a scene to life.. quality materials can make a mediocre scene look brilliant...takes a bit of photoshop work.

The Board and batten are just material regions set to 3/4" and I adjusted your frieze to 7/8 for capture. Very simple procedure and looks good in 2d elevations as well. You can find a post about it somewhere on the forums I am sure. 

I have a very good asphalt shingle bump somewhere but couldn't find it when I was messing around with your file and didn't have time to make a proper one.

Also the back drop makes a big difference. In PBR it will project the dominant colors as light regardless of what color you have the sun set to. So if you pick a backdrop with a lot of green in it, you will see green light on your surfaces.

[AlvarD]

16 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

You could try the B&B Batten Library I made in the Symbols Forum...it uses a "Framing Material" to generate 3D B&B just make sure to have Framing on in ALL views to see it....

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/16852-board-and-batten-library/

 

...

 

Thanks Mick, and Rene for your suggestions on getting more realistic B&B renderings. I played around with the B&B and Rainscreen library where you have to add it as framing, but in the end I ended up creating my own normal map using Photoshop and the NormalMap online website. I think it looks much better than the default B&B in CA and probably pretty close to the 3D framing option with the B&B library. The advantage is that I don't have to worry about framing the walls and the cleaning up the resulting boards. 

 

The pic below shows a PBR render where the left gable uses the default B&B (this one is from the CertainTeed library), and the right gable uses a material where I just applied my normal map.  

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Here's another example of a PBR exterior.

 

The lighting only consists of the sun and one area spot light behind the camera to soften the shadows. As an alternative to using the traditional backdrop I drew a polyline solid behind the structure just past the terrain perimeter, essentially a large screen. To this I applied the wispy tree backdrop, now I can use the image properties DBX to control the backdrop independent of the sun. To create the slight orange/red glow in the sky I placed a 3D spot light aimed at the backdrop image with the light colour set to a deep orange/red color. All materials and objects are just standard CA.

 

[HumbleChief]

Nice Graham,

 

Another great work around for the lack of simple features in Chief's PBR engine. Maybe X11 will allow a lighter sky with soft shadows and no need to darken the sky to where it's useless to get those soft shadows and no need to create textures with PhotoShop, a means to stop light leaking through exterior walls and all the other issues with PBR. Just wait another 5 - 6 months with these crippled features and they MIGHT be fixed and more usable in X11 - MIGHT.

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, AlvarD said:

 

Thanks Mick, and Rene for your suggestions on getting more realistic B&B renderings. I played around with the B&B and Rainscreen library where you have to add it as framing, but in the end I ended up creating my own normal map using Photoshop and the NormalMap online website. I think it looks much better than the default B&B in CA and probably pretty close to the 3D framing option with the B&B library. The advantage is that I don't have to worry about framing the walls and the cleaning up the resulting boards. 

 

The pic below shows a PBR render where the left gable uses the default B&B (this one is from the CertainTeed library), and the right gable uses a material where I just applied my normal map.  

 

using material regions doesnt effect framing, it is a separate entity entirely, and looks correct on plans..including elevations, which can even be dimensioned