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Insulation in Material List

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See attached.The only way I can get batt insulation to show in the material list is to add it in as a main layer w/zero thickness then my  2x 6 main layer studs won't show in the ML?

 

The catalog has 16 oc batts I want 24 so what do I do now? 

 

What is the purpose of the check mark "insu" when checked batt quantities does not show up in the ML?

 

What does adding values to the Energy section do? 

 

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not sure if this is it but in your dbx box you have batt insulation and insulation checked but the fill is white and the thickness in 0

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See attached.The only way I can get batt insulation to show in the material list is to add it in as a main layer w/zero thickness then my  2x 6 main layer studs won't show in the ML?

 

The catalog has 16 oc batts I want 24 so what do I do now? 

 

What is the purpose of the check mark "insu" when checked batt quantities does not show up in the ML?

I personally don't use material lists, but in messing around with it for a bit, I pretty quickly discovered the following...

 

First, you need to check "Insul" wherever you want insulation, NOT on a unique insulation layer.  In other words, its your 5-1/2" stud layer that gets insulated so that's where the check should go. 

 

Secondly, the insulation won't show up in the material list till you have actually created an enclosed building envelope (i.e. you need to create an enclosed room).

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I decided to redo my first CA model now that I know a little more and take it slow watching the ML. I built a wall then ran it to see if it made sense. Been driving myself batty not knowing I had to create a room before the batts show up, pun intended :) Appears I was taking it too slow, Rrrrrr! Thanks Michael. 

 

So now it shows 16 oc insulation batts in a 24 oc wall. must be more weird batty nutty stuff going on in the wall? Just my luck! 

 

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What are others using for take-offs? 

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What are others using for take-offs? 

 

I still do all my take-offs old school.  Pen and a piece of paper. 

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Here is the plan. I built a small simple test house using 2 x 6's on 24 oc everywhere. The ML is coming up with 12" x 24" x 48" ceiling insulation & 6" x 16" x 93" wall batts. Not only is that the wrong size to fit the cavities but mfgs don't make it. 

ML Test.plan

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Terry,

 

You are correct.  The insulation for 16" stud spacing would be 15" and for 24" stud spacing it would be 23".  Chief should probably call it out at the 15" and 23" widths.

 

IAE. Chief gets the insulation width based on the "Wall Framing Spacing", not from the Wall Type Material.  Edit the Wall Framing in Defaults to 24" spacing and you will get 24" batts in the Materials List.

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Terry,

 

Further on this topic.

 

The Ins column in the wall def dbx has nothing to do with insulation appearing in the Materials List.

This option only controls the generation of insulation when Auto Detail is used in a Section view.

 

There are 2 ways to get wall insulation to appear in the Ml....or rather, there are 2 types of insulation that can be included in the ML. 

1. Specify a room as conditioned area. The ML will then generate insulation in the Insulation category for the wall (and ceiling) area.

Rooms that are specified as non-conditioned will not generate insulation in the ML.

The insulation size is based on the framing spacing for the room's walls.

 

2. Specify a wall layer in a wall definition using an insulation material.

This method produces wall insulation in the Siding category of the ML.

The size of the insulation is derived from the insulation material's settings.

 

In your attached plan, the Insulation Rigid in the Siding Category is coming from the wall layer 3 - Insulation Rigid which has a material definition matching the sizes indicated, ie, 48" high x 96" long (4'x8') x 1 1/2" thick. 

 

Under the insulation Category, the ML shows Wall Insulation as 6x16x93".

This appears firstly because the room is conditioned. The size is derived from the stud spacing (16") and the wall height.

There is something funny going on with the stud spacing because when I double click the material Fir Stud 24" OC it takes me to the Fir Stud 16" OC which is what the insulation size reflects - not sure what is going on there. 

I think the thickness is rounding up to 6" from the 5 1/2' wall layer thickness.  

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There is something funny going on with the stud spacing because when I double click the material Fir Stud 24" OC it takes me to the Fir Stud 16" OC which is what the insulation size reflects - not sure what is going on there. I think the thickness is rounding up to 6" from the 5 1/2' wall layer thickness.  

 

 

Thanks guys. 

 

Glenn, when I select matls it defaults to 24 OC and if you take a framing overview or cut it shows 2x6's for both ceiling joist and wall studs @ 24 OC. See attached PICS. 

 

Unless I am doing something wrong the model has the correct cavity volumes of 5 1/2" x 23" x 120"( 10' studs I used) but, the program is not reading it correctly (EG: 6" x 16" x 93"). Same with the ceiling where is "12" x 24" x 48 " batts" coming from?

 

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I was lead to believe when I purchased the software there is a functional ML. I read alot on here that have said the model has to be perfect. In this simple model where is the model at fault? Perhaps I need to call CA or write a ticket since I do not want to have babysit this ML to the point where I can spend the same amount of time doing it by hand as others have opted to do.  

 

The batts I am purchasing come in 5 1/2" x 23" x 47". See PIC below: I created a new material called "Insulation 24 OC" with those "sheet" dims....See the 1st ML CA rounds it's specs I imputed as 5 1/2" x 23" x 47"  to 5 1/2" x 24" x 48 ", go figure, and says count equals 133. I get a count of 120( 2.5 batts/cavity x 48 cavities)...close enough not sure if CA adds 10 % waste? See next ML I turn off conditioned room as you said since I don't need CA def anymore as a work around other than CA round the width and length dims an inch up I do not like. Not sure what to do with the ceiling? 

 

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On a side note: how do I get that 5 1/2 dimension text in the first pic above to show horizontally? I looked everywhere, the rotation handle takes the leaders and arrows with it. 

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Terry,

 

1.  Ignore the Material Definition in the Wall Type.  The material might as well be "Fir Studs"

  a.  It has nothing to do with the Material List for spacing of Studs

  b.  It has nothing to do with the size (width or height) of the insulation.

  c.  It will not set the spacing of the studs in wall framing.

2.  In Defaults>Framing>Wall set the spacing to 24"

3.  Build the Wall Framing

4.  Create a new Material List

  a.  Batt Insulation will be # of pieces of 6x24x93

  b.  This is basically a stock size (Owens Corning Insulation)

  c.  The quantity will be correct to insulate the walls.

  d.  The quantity of Studs in the Materials List will be correct.

 

There is no way to tell Chief that you want to use 6x24x48 batts.  If that's what you want to purchase you can edit the Description or Comment fields or export to an Excel Spreadsheet and make adjusts there.

 

Note, You might need to look at the "Structural Member Reporting" settings to get studs reported in pieces vs feet but the quantities will be correct anyway.

 

A simple way to check the framing materials is to select a single wall (with framing displayed) and open the "Components" dbx.  It's a small Materials List of just that wall.

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Joe, let me try and get this straight. See PIC 1, I had the framing wall default set to "use wall framing material" so CA looked at my wall default "wall type, material"  where I call out a CA catalog material "Fir Stud 24'OC" which shows 24 OC studs in my views BUT CA could care less about that it looks at the stud spacing in "framing wall default" that is deactivated and shows 16 OC. Go figure! 

 

To fix this I unchecked and deactivated "use wall framing material" so that CA would now look at "framing wall defaults" where I changed the stud spacing to 24 OC. See PIC 2, now the insulation is calculating 6" x 24"x 48" and yes the 16" width is now 24", we are getting there! I'm not aware of OC procuring a 6" batt, it is 5 1/2, if it is 6 inch it will compress and loose r-value. 

 

We need another place to change wall stud spacing so I can get more confused ;)

 

What is the ceiling looking at where is the 12" coming from? Floor and 1st floor framing defaults both showing 5 1/2. 

 

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Terry,

 

If Chief was calculating the insulation based on the Wall Type it would be in the "Wall" section of the Materials List. 

 

Off hand, I don't know exactly where the 12" ceiling insulation is coming from but I suspect it's the Rafter Depth, not the Ceiling Joists.

 

IAE, don't sweat the 6" vs 5.5" Wall Insulation thickness.  It's just symantics.

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If Chief was calculating the insulation based on the Wall Type it would be in the "Wall" section of the Materials List. 

 

 

I guess that is true by the same token it is not part of the Framing in the ML either it has an "installation" category. It would be more clear if there was a DBX spec call out to include the words "insulation" since there are at least two ways I know of now to drive stud spacing. I think I am beginning to understand why so many people especially new like me are struggling with or do not use the ML. 

 

I been around many CAD programs that try and push data to a spread sheet. Even large companies do not use it and do hand inputs. The large company I work for now just made a change to push data direct from the CAD model properties DBXs to BIMS software, it is working good after ALOT of growing pains. 

 

I can get there with the data now that I understand it better. 

 

Anyway learned alot from you and Glenn here as usual thank you both.  I'll be in San Diego for the holidays, not sure if you are doing a seminar or know of any let me know. 

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FWIW, I was once a newbie with Chief.

 

Most of what I've learned has been via trying things - and of course the help of many others on these forums.  I have used the ML several times and have always found it to be pretty accurate as long as I was careful to make the model accurate.  I avoid using what I call "dumb CAD" because it's not BIM.  IOW, I avoid PSolids, Primitive Solids, etc.  They don't have any "Intelligence" that can be reported in the ML or in Schedules.

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 IOW, I avoid PSolids, Primitive Solids, etc.  They don't have any "Intelligence" that can be reported in the ML or in Schedules.

 

 

 

Joe,

Whhooooo.

That's not quite correct.

Both PSolids and Primitive Solids will report materials to the ML.

You can also convert a PSolid to an Architectural Block and have it report in either a Cabinet, Fixture, Furniture or Electrical Schedule. 

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I created two P_solids in an empty plan made of concrete that are showing in the ML including cubic yards to purchase. I was hoping that was the case since there are things I want to do in CA I do not see a tool or material for. I grouped them into an Architectural Block that does not show? My understanding is AB's are just groupings that can be of different materials. I can imagine an Assemble input in the ML. For example, I do Installation, Assemble, and Detail drawings where I work. It is not all captured on one "Layout"......It can be if the company decides and some do, we then call that "detail on assemble or installation". Not popular since suppliers that are making details we do not want seeing the rest of the design for proprietary purposes, or, it can clutter what they are trying to build. Where I work now they have a mono detail directive that does not allow more than one detail to be created per sheet. If you can imagine every P_solid needing it's own drawing. Has to do with BIMs, that's another long winded thread as to why. 

 

I did know there was such a thing as primitive solids thanks for the heads up. I'll research them. 

 

So lets say I want to create a house with 16" x 18" x 36" strawbale insulation. Would it not be best to create a volume of it in the wall type dbx as the main layer provided it is load bearing. The 36" spacing would occur by specifying it in the wall framing default? In this case create the wall type with inner and outer layers such as 2" plaster on both sides rather than creating p-solids and stacking bales and adding p-solid plaster renders to both sides? If I wanted to show 18" ( 1/2 of 36") staggered & stacked bales I would then probably have to use p-solids and stack them in the 3d model one-by-one? 

 

I do not fully understand how to put material textures to P_solids, etc. How would I in the example above find a picture of a strawbale on the internet and apply it to the P_solid so it looks real? Would that be a pattern or texture in the wall type dbx? CA has strawbale in the catalog but it looks like furniture. 

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OK, so I learned something new today ;)

But I'm still not a fan of using some of these things - for various other reasons.

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OK, so I learned something new today ;)

But I'm still not a fan of using some of these things - for various other reasons.

 

You're still a guru we all know that. So how would you create four exterior walls made of 16" wide 18" tall 36" long stacked strawbales without the use of p-solids? 8' tall walls and a 16' x 16' plan. 

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I'd probably use a custom Wall Type similar to a Masonry Wall.  But the Masonry Units would be "Straw Bales". 

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I'd probably use a custom Wall Type similar to a Masonry Wall.  But the Masonry Units would be "Straw Bales". 

 

Joe, are you saying start with a CA_CMU shown in the pic? If so how do I modify the width and length? I know how to modify the thickness of the wall/block. 

 

That work out real nice since they are staggered. 

 

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I found some old threads on this subject but no good answer. 

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cheif%20architect%20strawbale%20house

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Joe, are you saying start with a CA_CMU shown in the pic? If so how do I modify the width and length? I know how to modify the thickness of the wall/block. 

 

Terry,

 

The width and height (also the color) are just a material definition.  Those things can be easily modified to create a new material.  You will need to edit both the pattern and the texture so they match.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you want to end up with, but I would imagine you need to have a stucco finish on the exterior and probably furring and drywall on the inside.  Straw Bales need protection so they don't get destroyed.  Water and critters can make a mess out of them.  I would add those layers to the wall type.

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Terry,

 

The width and height (also the color) are just a material definition.  Those things can be easily modified to create a new material.  You will need to edit both the pattern and the texture so they match.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you want to end up with, but I would imagine you need to have a stucco finish on the exterior and probably furring and drywall on the inside.  Straw Bales need protection so they don't get destroyed.  Water and critters can make a mess out of them.  I would add those layers to the wall type.

 

Finally got some time to look at these responses. I decided after reading this is was time to read the ref manual "Materials" " Library Browser"... Alot going on there still reading. Thanks for the help Joe, yes I have my own engineered proprietary renders I'll offer to my clients and perhaps the public soon. I'll also be offering a hempcrete binder. I know how to design been doing it for over 30 years, just do not know how to run this software that well. Getting there. 

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Terry,

 

Have a look at this model and how I made the wall.

 

regards,

Michael

 

 

Yet another Guru on the scene :) That is the way to go. Thanks Michael. Take a look at the vectors (edge lines) on the blocks, something funky going on. Take note of the block directions at bottom wall compared to side wall, and the long blocks on the side wall that look longer than 36". 

 

The bales show up in the ML as needing 118 when I set the wall rough ceiling and floor heights @ 108" (9' wall heights) which allows 6 x 18" tall full course bales stacked and staggered 9'. Doing the math for the 1.33' (16" thk) x ((2)16' & (2)14')) x  9' bale wall CA generates in the plan = 720 ft-3. 

 

The bales in the material section of the wall def are 1.33' x 1.5' x 3' (16" x 18" x 36") x 118 = 708 ft-3

 

That's a difference of around 1.3 % or more precisely 2 bales close enough.  

 

I attached my modified plan if case any cares to check my math. ML is in the PB.

 

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strawbale wall model(T).plan

 

 

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