Joe_Carrick Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Larry and others are having trouble understanding how the Structure dbx works. Here are the rules as I understand them: 1. The Floor Definitions define Ceiling Heights and thereby reserve a minimum vertical space. 2. The Floor Structure Definitions also reserve vertical space (no room can infringe on this) 3. The Ceiling Finish is applied directly to the bottom of the Floor Structure above. 4. As Floors are built/created, they follow the values set in the defaults. 5. Subsequent modifications to the Room Structure dbx have the following ramifications: If the Ceiling Height of a Room is changed it effects the Floor of the Room(s) directly above above by moving the Floor Structure. If the Floor Elevation of a Room is changed it effects the Ceiling Heights of the Room(s) directly below - again by moving the Floor Structure. Note that if there are overlapping room locations more than one room may be effected. When a Foundation or Roof is present and "Rebuild" is OFF those elevations are essentially fixed which can result in some difficulty in adjusting the lowest Floor if "Floor is supplied by Foundation Room Below" and also difficulty in adjusting the ceiling heights directly below the Roof. Note that by modifying the Floor Structure to include an Air Gap and Ceiling Joist Framing you can get a "Lowered Ceiling" for the Room(s) below. The Ceiling Finish will be applied to the bottom of that Structure. The Other option is to modify the "Ceiling Finish to include that Air Gap and Framing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 And if you drop a ceiling in half of a larger room, you must repair the open end of the drop side. Several way of doing it but I find to put an opening in that wall ceiling high will look good in 3d but not look good in 2d. you can also use a p-solid and even a pulled up wall. Choose your poison, I wish Chief would fix this, it's similar tothe stair triangle problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcaffee Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Structural Ceilings and Drop Ceiling are two entirely different issues in CA. Structural ceiling are defined and reflected in the "Ceiling Structure" and "Rough Ceiling (E)" portion of the Structure dbx, respectively; while "Drop Ceilings are defined in "Ceiling Finish (J)" and Reflected in Finished Ceiling (F)" To illustrate... jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Jon, You are only partially correct. Manually Drawn Ceiling Planes can be used for "Dropped Ceilings" and those will use the "Ceiling Structure". This is a good way to avoid having to use the "Ceiling Finish" or "Floor Structure" to define those things where you have a Floor above the Ceiling. Note that otherwise the "Ceiling Structure" is pretty much limited to the Ceilings directly below a Roof. That's because where there's a Floor above, the "Ceiling Finish" is directly applied to the Floor Structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcaffee Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Gotcha. jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 And if you drop a ceiling in half of a larger room, you must repair the open end of the drop side. Several way of doing it but I find to put an opening in that wall ceiling high will look good in 3d but not look good in 2d. you can also use a p-solid and even a pulled up wall. Choose your poison, I wish Chief would fix this, it's similar tothe stair triangle problem. Perry, I lost you a bit there, but doesn't checking Generate Between Platforms in the wall dbx handle that situation? As I said, I didn't fully understand what you were say, so I may be way off. Can you explain further - in English this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Perry, I lost you a bit there, but doesn't checking Generate Between Platforms in the wall dbx handle that situation? As I said, I didn't fully understand what you were say, so I may be way off. Can you explain further - in English this time? I wish both Glenn and Perry were clearer. I think I know where Perry is going, but a short vid would be much clearer, and I would love to see a short vid from Glenn because I barely understand the tool he is,talking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcaffee Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I know exactly what Perry is talking about. As things exist, you need to run a solid wall between the spaces and use a doorway if the drop gap is to be filled automatically. But, but, but--then you get doorway finishes in places you don't want them. When using an invisible wall/room divider to separate the drop spaces, then you're left with a visible gap between ceiling planes that you must fill manually. It's a time wasting PITA. jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I am still not clear? Can you post a simple plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcaffee Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 That's the one. jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ah, OK. That is controlled by the Generate Between Platforms setting on the Structure tab of the wall's dbx. This setting only works with invisible walls and railings - Room divider is an invisible wall. I was wondering why this wasn't automatic for some users as it is for me. Is this setting toggled on in your wall defaults for Room Divider and Railing walls? I feel a video coming on. http://screencast.com/t/i2Lf2BSO I couldn't stop at one: http://screencast.com/t/wwRIpPbTZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaneK Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Drop ceiling with 1/16" invisible wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 In regards to this: - I think Shane missed the boat completely, in fact I am not even sure why he needs the 1/16"wall to build what he built. - I believe Jon is correct in regards to Perry's solution, which is the method I use (an opening in a wall) I use the Perry solution all the time in this situation which is a model whereby the ceiling is a DROPPED CEILING/SOFFIT under the floor above which results in an OPEN END AT THE END OF THE DROPPED CEILING SOFFIT. - I am glad Glenn posted a video, this is what I expected Glenn was talking about, I do not think Glenn and Perry's situation is the same....... with Glenn's #1 video solution, I think that is the way I would build it, The Glenn #2 video solution scenario is more common for me, but I am not sure I would necessarily use his solution. This is a great modeling challenge we can discuss at the Thursday Workshop that I posted in the Chat Room. And if Vista Larry were to attend, this model scenario could be used to help him understand how to modify floor/ceiling elevations after the engineer required 14"deep joists in lieu of 12" deep joists. I have saved this plan, maybe we can open the workshop on Thursday discussing these scenarios. And please, for all of you that are attending, please have models ready that we can discuss in regards to building models with the structural in mind. This workshop should include how to deal with differing platform heights, modeling mono slabs, mono slabs adjacent to raised floor assemblies and dealing with roof framing, in particular, overstack roof scenarios/truss bases and dealing with fascias..... Perry knows what I am talking about. So bring your funky and unique models so we can discuss. One of the purposes of this workshop is to gather ammunition to discuss with the CA programmers at the next UGM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 So Glenn had the Perfect solution for Perry's conundrum - but really this thread (the original post) was intended to explain how moving floors and/or ceiling heights effect the rooms above and/or below. It's really interesting how a subject can get side tracked so easily. Scott ----- I agree for the GTM on Thursday we need to discuss the issues about the Structure dbx and how we would like it to be modified to work better, but I'm not sure all the ramifications of "dropped ceilings" should be the focus of the meeting. Understanding how the vertical Push/Pull works and how it could be improved is IMO much more important. We could easily get side tracked with "details" which as Glenn pointed out are not that big a deal as long as you understand those settings that he showed us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaneK Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Missed the boat and the bus. I used 1/16" invisible wall for room definition and didn't want the scars left from a normal width wall.. I'm clearly not qualified. Notice opening further back in my photo, it's a doorway, just like Jon uses. Mr. Hall please forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So Glenn had the Perfect solution for Perry's conundrum - MAYBE FOR A PARTICULAR SCENARIO, PERRY'S SOLUTION DEALT WITH A DIFFERENT SCENARIO IN WHICH GLENN'S SOLUTION WOULD NOT OF WORKED FOR but really this thread (the original post) was intended to explain how moving floors and/or ceiling heights effect the rooms above and/or below. GLENN'S SOLUTION #1 WAS MEANT TO BETTER EXPLAIN HOW TO DEAL WITH THE INITIAL PURPOSE OF THE THREAD, SO I DO NOT THINK IT HAS BEEN SIDETRACKED. It's really interesting how a subject can get side tracked so easily. The more we understand the program, the more we understand there is not a simple answer to what can be perceived to be a simple question. The initial question as to how to deal with different ceiling elevations is predicated on many different parameters...... and if you think I just said a bunch of gobbledy goop without really saying anything, I am inclined to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 The more we understand the program, the more we understand there is not a simple answer to what can be perceived to be a simple question. The initial question as to how to deal with different ceiling elevations is predicated on many different parameters...... and if you think I just said a bunch of gobbledy goop without really saying anything, I am inclined to agree. I also tend to agree Please go back and read post #1. It really wasn't about how to deal with different ceiling elevations - it was about what changing floor and/or ceiling elevations effects adjacent floors and the rooms on those floors.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Missed the boat and the bus. I used 1/16" invisible wall for room definition and didn't want the scars left from a normal width wall.. I'm clearly not qualified. Notice opening further back in my photo, it's a doorway, just like Jon uses. Mr. Hall please forgive me. You used the 1/16" wall for the room definition..... why do you need to define the room? If you need to define the room for floor definitions, I get it. If you need the 1/16" wall for the ceiling height definitions, the 1/16"wall is not necessary. I love dealing with these modeling challenges, and that is why in my previous post I alluded to the fact there is not one easy answer to a modeling challenge. Shane, I know that you appreciate the back and forth banter that we go through to solve an issue, thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaneK Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 New const verses existing and YES I do like the whity banter we enjoy here. End result of this forum is to teach, learn, improve and make the software better that we ALL use to generate our projects. Mr. Hall you are a VALUABLE source of information and methods of use for CHIEF ARCHITECT. Sometimes grumpy but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lmbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So Glenn had the Perfect solution for Perry's conundrum - MAYBE FOR A PARTICULAR SCENARIO, PERRY'S SOLUTION DEALT WITH A DIFFERENT SCENARIO IN WHICH GLENN'S SOLUTION WOULD NOT OF WORKED FOR Well, if we could see a plan that demonstrates Perry's particular scenario, then we could better judge what would be the better method to handle it, and wether the method I posted was suitable or not. Joe, You have no hope of stopping the drifting of the threads - they have a life of their own. So... I think that a discussion regarding the control of the vertical surfaces between stepped platforms is a crucial ingredient when discussing the control of the platforms themselves - admittedly not a major issue, but still a legitimate discussion point that shouldn't be ignored. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Well, if we could see a plan that demonstrates Perry's particular scenario, then we could better judge what would be the better method to handle it, ....... Good point, in meeting now, but quick scenario, two story house, on first floor in lower left quadrant build a room with invisible walls, build a dropped ceiling soffit in this room, you will see the ceiling but the sides of the soffit will be open. this is the scenario where the walls should not be invisible but you put in a door opening that is the height of the dropped ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Here is a picture of this scenario that I did totally using Chief's Structure and it framed - including the soffit and the soffit walls. This did not use Scott's method. There are not "Openings to make the soffit walls. In fact there are no interior walls on that floor at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Here is a picture of this scenario that I did totally using Chief's Structure and it framed - including the soffit and the soffit walls. This did not use Scott's method. There are not "Openings to make the soffit walls. In fact there are no interior walls on that floor at all. Are you going to keep the method a secret? If I were to guess, you created that using the floor above, but there really isn't a floor above, you used the used floor above to create the soffit.... no surprise. Let me see if you can do that with an entire second floor above and the framed soffit below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Please, lets's not play games and guess at each others method, let's lay it out on the table. I have been through all this stuff a thousand times, if you have something to share, please share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Simple solution. My 1st Floor has a Ceiling height of 8' ----- This is to be the "Soffit Height" I created a 2nd Floor - Ceiling Height 20" - Floor Structure 2x4's - no Finish Floor - Open Below Then I drew walls (2x4 with drywall on only one side) on the 2nd Floor) and change the Room to "Unspecified". Build Framing (Walls, Ceilings, Floors, Roof) Not a big deal but it shows another reason to consider using extra floors. For the real Second Floor I just add a 3rd Floor and label it as "Second Floor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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