Low hanging valley rafters

[braneks]

Any idea why CA won't cut the valley rafters which are hanging below the fascia?   Admittedly I'm new to CA, have 0 CAD background, and little construction experience but I spent the night at a Holiday Inn :-), examined/tweaked every roofing setting I can find, watched as many videos as possible in my free time,  and read as much help as I can w/o much luck.  I am sure it's me but no idea how to fix.   Also I know if I box the eaves the rafters are cut but I don't want to box them.

 

BTW I also want to say thanks to everyone who posts here.  I can't tell you how helpful/insightful reading your posts and answers have been.

 

 

ValleyTroubles.plan

[braneks]

Eric,

Not sure what you want to see but here are a few showing one valley exhibiting the issue - note the valley on the other side of the porch is fine.    It could just be how CA works but I only have 3 valleys like this and the rest are as expected.  There was a fourth valley with this issue but somehow the combination of adjusting overhangs, aligning roof planes/walls to the 1/100th of an inch etc. resulted in the problem going away - and doing the same for these three hasn't work.  I could create a custom rafter tail but given the others are fine I would like to know for sure it's CA and not me - my bet is on me.

[Kbird1]

From your description I would suspect that the Roof Planes are not joined Properly, ( ie fiddling around you fixed one by accident)

 

Use the Join Roof Tool and go around and make sure they are joined properly. .....Not in Valleys but on Ridges , if there is no RidgeCap showing it is a good sign that the planes are NOT joined properly.

 

As Eric mentioned, it's always a good idea to post a copy of your Plan file (while Chief is Closed) if possible or at least a Test Plan exhibiting the issue if the Plan is too large for the Forum (25mb max , but plans compress well when zipped too)     DONE on OP

 

M.

 

[Chopsaw]

20 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

As Eric mentioned, it's always a good idea to post a copy of your Plan file (while Chief is Closed) if possible or at least a Test Plan exhibiting the issue if the Plan is too large for the Forum (25mb max , but plans compress well when zipped too)

 

Plan file is posted with Original Posting.  

[Kbird1]

3 minutes ago, Chopsaw said:

 

Plan file is posted with Original Posting.  

 

Ooops missed that, thanks..... , thought Eric wanted a few Pics at least to help ......

[Chopsaw]

Curious if there is a way to make the mixed pitch valleys work or not ?

[Kbird1]

10 hours ago, Chopsaw said:

Curious if there is a way to make the mixed pitch valleys work or not ?

 

They do , Had a quick look and noticed the Valleys weren't over the wall intersections , so instead of messing around I delete the Roof planes and Framing and rebuilt the Roofs Auto , setting the Wall Directives up as they should be from the Original roof and the Garage and Breezeway(laundry intersections now look fine.

 

Personally I usually recommend doing as much as possible with Auto Roofs then  make manuals changes as and when needed , especially on fairly simple roofs.... Manual Roof skills are good to have but I see a few other miss alignments and I think there are "height" issues with the Manual Roof planes.

 

 

[Chopsaw]

7 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

They do , Had a quick look and noticed the Valleys weren't over the wall intersections , so instead of messing around I delete the Roof planes and Framing and rebuilt the Roofs Auto , setting the Wall Directives up as they should be for the Original roof and the Garage and Breezeway(laundry intersections now look fine.

 

Nice work Mick.   I just had a go at cleaning up the existing roof planes manually in the affected areas and could not seem to get any results.  Good to know auto will handle a roof like that.

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, Chopsaw said:

 

Nice work Mick.   I just had a go at cleaning up the existing roof planes manually in the affected areas and could not seem to get any results.  Good to know auto will handle a roof like that.

 

Thx, There Is a bit of weirdness in the Plan , in that depending on where you click , something "invisible" selects , the Status Bar says they are a "Shape" but other that the Edit handle nothing is Visible...not sure if whatever they are ? is messing with the plan but I also deleted them as I accidentally selected them... The OP maybe able to explain this part a bit more, as I didn't dig much deeper as it was already late.

 

M.

[braneks]

Chopsaw and Kbird1,

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at it.  I'm sure there is more weirdness in the plan :-( - in fact I ran into this trying to clean things up, plus I had just watched nsestor's videos on porch wall/columns and thought crap I didn't do that "right".   I do tend to use auto roofs but the roofs  for the main house were a hot mess when I did that initially (the ones in the posted plan aren't setup correct) and figured it would be easier to just draw them manually.   Also I was trying to get all the roof eaves the same length and AFAIK auto roofs won't do that (?).   Anyway kbird1's comment got me to take a step back and I went back to using auto roof for the garage/breezeway section to see what CA would generate, then manually redrew the roofs with the same values CA calculated.  That worked so I then adjusted to make eaves the same and that also worked (the valleys aren't over the wall intersections but w/ different pitches I don't see how they can be).   I don't yet understand what  was wrong but I've got a better understanding of things and how to debug them - thanks!

 

kbird1,

Can you tell me about where you clicked to get these 'shapes'?   Good chance it's left over from some other edit/change that didn't get fully cleaned up.

 

 

[Kbird1]

44 minutes ago, braneks said:

Chopsaw and Kbird1,

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at it.  I'm sure there is more weirdness in the plan :-( - in fact I ran into this trying to clean things up, plus I had just watched nsestor's videos on porch wall/columns and thought crap I didn't do that "right".   I do tend to use auto roofs but the roofs  for the main house were a hot mess when I did that initially (the ones in the posted plan aren't setup correct) and figured it would be easier to just draw them manually.   Also I was trying to get all the roof eaves the same length and AFAIK auto roofs won't do that (?).   Anyway kbird1's comment got me to take a step back and I went back to using auto roof for the garage/breezeway section to see what CA would generate, then manually redrew the roofs with the same values CA calculated.  That worked so I then adjusted to make eaves the same and that also worked (the valleys aren't over the wall intersections but w/ different pitches I don't see how they can be).   I don't yet understand what  was wrong but I've got a better understanding of things and how to debug them - thanks!

 

 

Auto Build will build the Roof differently depending on the 4 Options in the Roof Height area of the Roof Tab. ie Same Wall heights, same eave heights etc ....so different overhangs with different pitches , or fixed overhangs and different wall heights should all be possible.

 

F1 Context Help

Specify how you would like the eaves of roof planes with different pitches to meet. See Aligning Eaves.

• Check Same Roof Height at Exterior Walls to keep bearing walls the same height and change horizontal roof overhang distances as needed so that eaves meet correctly. When checked, this option ignores any overhang values you may have entered in the Wall Specification dialog. See Aligning Eaves. (Below)

Uncheck this option to raise or lower some roof planes relative to the wall’s top plate, allowing all horizontal overhangs to be the same unless a non-default value has been entered in the Wall Specification dialog. See Roof Directives in Walls.

• Check Same Height Eaves to keep the eave height for all roof planes the same. Roof planes are raised and lowered as needed so that eaves meet correctly. 

The eave height used when this box is checked is that of a roof plane using the default Pitch and Overhang values. When this box is checked, all roof planes are affected, including those that do not need adjustment in order to align with adjacent planes.

When Same Height Eaves is checked, any non-default overhang values specified in the Wall Specification dialog are used. Roof planes are raised or lowered so that the eave height is the same, regardless of the horizontal overhang.

• Uncheck Allow Low Roof Planes only when an upper floor overhangs roof planes below.

 

Aligning Eaves

It is not uncommon for roof plans to feature more than one pitch. In order for the eaves of roof planes with different pitches to meet correctly at ridges and hips, you must control the roof planes’ heights and their horizontal overhang distances. Two options in the Build Roof dialog allow you to control how the eaves of automatically generated roof planes align. See Roof Panel. (Above)

• Same Roof Height at Exterior Walls maintains the default height of roof planes where they bear on exterior walls. The horizontal overhang distances of any non-default roof planes are adjusted so that they continue to join correctly with default roof planes.

• Same Eave Heights maintains the default roof plane height at the eaves as well as any non-default horizontal overhang distances . All roof planes are raised or lowered so that they all have the same height at the eaves as default roof planes.

Roof planes that do not join other roof planes with different pitches at ridges or hips are referred to as Independent.

• When Same Roof Height at Exterior Walls is checked, Independent roof planes are not affected and will maintain any non-default overhang values.

• When both Same Roof Height at Exterior Walls and Same Eave Heights are checked, the overhangs of Independent roof planes will be adjusted to preserve their heights at both the exterior walls and the eaves.

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

55 minutes ago, braneks said:

kbird1,

Can you tell me about where you clicked to get these 'shapes'?   Good chance it's left over from some other edit/change that didn't get fully cleaned up.

 

I ran into a few of them , this one I found while clicking over the LH laundry wall, maybe a Polyline you converted to a Solid perhaps?

 

 

Also forgot to mention you have a few Walls with non-default wall top and bottom heights, ( you will see the warning when rebuilding the Roof) , it is best not to play with Walls in 3D unless you REALLY need too , to fix something CA just won't do Auto , as if these walls are not at defaults the won't rebuild Automatically to reach new Roof planes of the Foundation etc, the fast fix is to use Edit>Reset to defaults....

 

 

Don't use the Room Type Attic...Use Storage instead in this plan...Attic is a special Rm designation that will cause the Roof not to build correctly Auto ....ie the room is ignored but the Roof Directives in Autobuild. There are also issues upstairs with other Room Definitions , so the Roof won't build correctly...if you can't select a room a Roof won't build.

[braneks]

15 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

I ran into a few of them , this one I found while clicking over the LH laundry wall, maybe a Polyline you converted to a Solid perhaps?

 

 

Thanks - I had to pull down the plan I posted to see this as it wasn't in my local plan.  I don't know what it is but probably left over from trying to take the actual plan and creating one to post.   I see a few other issues w/ the plan I posted like there should be no holes in the kitchen/master bath ceilings.  Lesson learned - next time I will take a closer look at the example plan before posting, or better yet create new plan  - sorry about that.

 

As for the auto roof build settings  - all I can say is !@#$.  I've been so focused on the object specifications that I failed to thoroughly read the auto build settings.  Time for another lesson/deep dive.   Thanks for pointing it out.

[Kbird1]

7 minutes ago, braneks said:

 

Thanks - I had to pull down the plan I posted to see this as it wasn't in my local plan.  I don't know what it is but probably left over from trying to take the actual plan and creating one to post.   I see a few other issues w/ the plan I posted like there should be no holes in the kitchen/master bath ceilings.  Lesson learned - next time I will take a closer look at the example plan before posting, or better yet create new plan  - sorry about that.

 

As for the auto roof build settings  - all I can say is !@#$.  I've been so focused on the object specifications that I failed to thoroughly read the auto build settings.  Time for another lesson/deep dive.   Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Was just editing my last post , so you may want to re-read it ...Don't use the Attic Room designation....

 

never got as far as seeing the the Ceilings have holes

[Kbird1]

Just to be Clear.....Auto Roofs may only take you 75% of the way , especially on ta Plan like this but it is still the best way to start in alot of circumstances especially when you only have a few roof Planes not using the Default pitch ....eg I think there are 4 in this plan not counting the 2 porches. This plan seems to have a few issues though especially on the 2nd floor with Room designations etc.

 

But since this Plan is not your "real plan" I won't play around much more....and things may have changed

 

M.

[DRAWZILLA]

For the valley problem, valley rafters are ridges are the same in the DBX, which we all know that they aren't in real life You just need to change the ridge the same size as the rafters and the valleys will follow with that size. Yes it's all very wrong but until Chief gives us all separate adjustments for those two and others , that's all we can do unless you want to turn off automatic framing and manually change the size of all separately.

[braneks]

1 hour ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Also forgot to mention you have a few Walls with non-default wall top and bottom heights, ( you will see the warning when rebuilding the Roof) , it is best not to play with Walls in 3D unless you REALLY need too , to fix something CA just won't do Auto , as if these walls are not at defaults the won't rebuild Automatically to reach new Roof planes of the Foundation etc, the fast fix is to use Edit>Reset to defaults....

 

 

 

 

Thank you!!   Sometime I accidentally move things when looking in 3D and could never figure out how to reset them.  Up till now I just start redrawing things until the error goes away.  Also I'm aware of the 'no room' definition and how to fix but wasn't aware of the issues with attic definition - could have been one of my original problems.

 

Yes please don't spend more time on this plan as it's not the final, and the one I have has changed so much from where I started I'm literally going reset and start over.   Normally wouldn't do that but in this case I have so much of the interior done (so my wife could visualize everything) that I think it makes more sense to start over knowing what I know now and making sure each step in the build process is correct before moving on.  

[CJSpud]

I'd bump out that short master bedroom wall into the screened porch are so you'll have something significant to have the screened porch roof framing to bear on.  You should check your walls .... I think I saw some that were out of alignment.  Also, I think the screened porch should have some sort of open truss on the outside that the cathedral ceiling material could but up against .... otherwise you'd need some really thick barge rafters to somehow receive the edge of the ceiling material (unless the intent is to have open rafters).  Noticed your screened porch roof overhangs were different than the others ... not sure if that is right or not.  The screened porch floor is down 8" .... ???  And there was a room off the master bath that didn't have the same ceiling elevation as the other rooms.  And some walls (attic for one) were no locate/no room definition which I think need to be changed.  Does the screened porch need valley rafters???  Is that how it would be built?  I think I would align some of the railing walls with the house walls differently ... ML to ML ... and change the newel spacing unless that's where the screening is going to go ???

 

All considered, I think the roof "looks" pretty good from the outside as does the overall appearance of the house and garage itself.  Don't have time to really did into it anymore than I have.

 

                   

[Kbird1]

52 minutes ago, braneks said:

Normally wouldn't do that but in this case I have so much of the interior done (so my wife could visualize everything) that I think it makes more sense to start over knowing what I know now and making sure each step in the build process is correct before moving on.  

 

Ahhh yes the Thrill of 3D Rendering many have fallen into that trap, best to complete the Structure etc before Decorating ..... the Cleaner the 3D model the easier when it come to Section Views etc.

 

And old Checklist of mine: CA Drawing Order Checklist.pdf

 

 

***Every Wall on the Structure Tab as the 1st Item also has two Check-boxes for Default Wall top and Bottom , but the wall in question is often had to find , which is when the Edit>Reset Default Option is handy.

 

M.

[braneks]

1 hour ago, CJSpud said:

The screened porch floor is down 8" .... ??? 

 

Thanks for taking a look - agree lots of things wrong with the plan I posted and it didn't help I tried to gut my plan to create a simple example. I've only been using CA for ~2 months so I am going to start over knowing what I know now. 

 

The reason the porch floor is down 8" is because I want the brick band on the outside to be even.  Otherwise the siding and brick don't align where the porch meets the house frame.   The only way I could think to "fix" this is by lowering the porch floor, and effectively creating a step into the house, is there some other way to do this?   Note: 8" doesn't get it exactly even but close enough that visually one doesn't notice the difference as much.

[braneks]

50 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

And old Checklist of mine: CA Drawing Order Checklist.pdf

 

 

***Every Wall on the Structure Tab as the 1st Item also has two Check-boxes for Default Wall top and Bottom , but the wall in question is often had to find , which is when the Edit>Reset Default Option is handy.

 

M.

Thanks for the list and I never noticed the default checks were there either (probably because they are normally grayed out). 

 

I've already made some good progress using only auto roof.   I'm not done but it certainly isn't the hot mess I started with.  Thanks again for the help - much appreciated.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, solver said:

Looks like the roof issues have been sorted out, so my only suggestion is a design one.

 

The garage seems poorly proportioned -- too much front facing wall. Here is a idea for an alternate.

 

 

 

 

That would look good too , I had assumed there was perhaps a Bonus Room (Office Space?) to be drawn above the garage yet?

, hence the 12/12 and was thinking the Roof over the Laundry area should be eliminated and the Gable above it extended over

to the Garage to allow access to the Garage Bonus Room via a Hallway upstairs. (should help the "mass" look nicer too,

maybe a 10/12 on the garage would work too?

 

M.

[gelbuilding]

Having a quick look at your plan is it seem you need to make both sides of the roof pitch the same.

Look at the roof plane spec, they are not identical, If you make them the same the valley raffter disappears.

 

[braneks]

Apologize for bump this up but I thought everything was OK after starting over and using the Build Roof functionality but they aren't.   I may still be doing something wrong but after much trial and error I think CA has some problem with certain combination of pitches.

 

Attached is a simple plan, from scratch plan this time, and pictures of the issue (which is the same as before).   I tried all combinations of pitches and found the only one where rafters extend below eaves is when the breezeway (laundry/pantry)  hip walls are set to  8 while the garage walls are set to 10.   All other combinations produce expected results.

 

Pitch:

Breezeway     Garage       Results 

8                       8                  :-)

10                     8                  :-)

10                     10                :-)

8                       10                :-(

 

The steps I followed are:

1. Turn on auto build framing  

2.  Set pitch of walls

3. 'Delete all objects'  -> Roof Planes &  Roof Baseline Polylines 

4.  Use Build Roof to build roof planes

 

Also in the Build Roof's Roof panel I tried different combinations of  the 'Roof Height' check boxes but they didn't help.

 

Questions I have:

1.   Can someone else confirm they see the same behavior

2.   Do I still have something wrong

3.  Assuming this is a problem w/ Chief, is creating a custom rafter tail on the offending rafters the best way to work around this?

 

I really want to move on from this but only if it's Chief and not me.

ExampleEaveRafters.plan

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, braneks said:

Attached is a simple plan, from scratch plan this time, and pictures of the issue (which is the same as before).   I tried all combinations of pitches and found the only one where rafters extend below eaves is when the breezeway (laundry/pantry)  hip walls are set to  8 while the garage walls are set to 10.   All other combinations produce expected results.

 

Pitch:

Breezeway     Garage       Results 

8                       8                  :-)

10                     8                  :-)

10                     10                :-)

8                       10                :-(

 

 

 

It's possible you have found a Bug, there is an Old bug with Hips with a similar issue as Perry mentioned, so this maybe related , I would send it in with this Plan if I was you .

 

*** I just pulled the Laundry room Out 15 ft and made the Wall a HIp again and it is happening there too.     

 

So I think you are Off the Hook

 

you can add 8:12 and 10:12 to your list above too.

 

In a Framing Overview I would just drag the two Valley Boards back to the Wall intersection, and that is close enough , as for some reason the Valleys are not being Trimmed by the Soffit as per the Standard Rafters.

 

 

M.