ShaneK Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Inside gets my vote and has been my method. Great videos guys showing the multiple ways to do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I agree with the Alaskan Son...it doesn't matter where you define the ceiling...either draw it from the outside...or the inside. You will need to adjust either the "inside bottom height"...or the "outside bottom height" to make the ceiling plane land in the proper location... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Here is the same truss...ceiling drawn from inside surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Here is a vid that demonstrates what is wrong with this stuff. If any of you guys can tell me whatI am doing wrong, please let me know. Plan Attached. To sum it up, the top plate elevations will change heights depending on whether it is a truss or conventional roof in the ROOF DEFAULTS BOX. If no one can show me what I am doing wrong, I will send it in as a bug..... TRUSS WARS VID 2 screw up 1.plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 28 minutes ago, dshall said: Here is a vid that demonstrates what is wrong with this stuff. If any of you guys can tell me whatI am doing wrong, please let me know. Plan Attached. To sum it up, the top plate elevations will change heights depending on whether it is a truss or conventional roof in the ROOF DEFAULTS BOX. If no one can show me what I am doing wrong, I will send it in as a bug..... Scott...when you change to "Truss" it changes the "birds mouth cut" to "0", "0". When you frame conventional and you don't have "Truss" checked...you may need to adjust the birds mouth cut... I'm no expert...but I'm not having these problems. Also...(I'm not sure about this...maybe Alaskan Son can comment) - after you build a roof plane (like in your vid) you may need to use the "edit all roofs" command instead of the "build roof" dialogue. I'm guessing...so, take this advice for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, dshall said: Here is a vid that demonstrates what is wrong with this stuff. If any of you guys can tell me whatI am doing wrong, please let me know. Plan Attached. To sum it up, the top plate elevations will change heights depending on whether it is a truss or conventional roof in the ROOF DEFAULTS BOX. If no one can show me what I am doing wrong, I will send it in as a bug..... See if this clarifies things for you Scott... To be clear, you were using rafters and not trusses so there are some structural and visual differences there, but ignoring that and assuming we're all talking about trusses still, the big difference was this... You had auto rebuild roofs toggled OFF which was causing your wall heights to change in order to accommodate your changes to the birdsmouth cut. With auto rebuild toggled on you would have seen your rafters moving instead of your wall heights. Also, if you had unchecked Auto Birdsmouth Cut with auto rebuild toggled off I think you would see that checking and unchecking Trusses (no birdsmouth) would actually have no effect whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 12 hours ago, glennw said: Michael & Scott, The reason is not quite obvious when you are dealing with trusses... The reason becomes more obvious when building the same geometry without trusses. As I said in a previous post, the framing will only build to the edge of the ceiling plane. If you draw your ceiling plane to outside of the main wall layer, Chief will frame the ceiling over the wall. If you draw your ceiling plane to inside of the main wall layer, that's where the framing will build to... Yeah, I was really only focusing on trusses for this particular exercise but I think you're probably right. Chief likely recommends that (I'm assuming they do because others have said so) so that it works for both trusses and conventionally framed roofs AND so the inside and outside bottom heights are a little more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: ........ You had auto rebuild roofs toggled OFF which was causing your wall heights to change in order to accommodate your changes to the birdsmouth cut. Of course I had auto rebuild roofs off. I do not want chief to rebuild them, I have decided where I want them. If CA rebuilds them, do you think they will build where I want them? No, they will relocate. 2 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: With auto rebuild toggled on you would have seen your rafters moving instead of your wall heights. Also, if you had unchecked Auto Birdsmouth Cut with auto rebuild toggled off I think you would see that checking and unchecking Trusses (no birdsmouth) would actually have no effect whatsoever. I do not want my rafters to move, that is the reason why I do not have auto rebuild on. Think about it, do you think there would be a situation where you have located the roof planes and you do not want them to auto rebuild thus relocate? You guys must understand I do remodels. There are existing conditions that can not change because they are existing. No worries, I have given up on hoping this type of stuff gets fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Michael, you suggest I have auto rebuild roofs on. I do not think that will work. Here is a very simple test. Build 2 20'x20' garages. Try to have one garage auto build roof with trusses and have the other garage auto build roof with rafters. 80% of my projects have a mixture of conventional and truss framing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 25 minutes ago, dshall said: Michael, you suggest I have auto rebuild roofs on. I do not think that will work. Here is a very simple test. Build 2 20'x20' garages. Try to have one garage auto build roof with trusses and have the other garage auto build roof with rafters. 80% of my projects have a mixture of conventional and truss framing. Di you watch my videos? I'm not suggesting you turn auto rebuild on. I'm only suggesting that you understand what is going on. You are experiencing moving walls because you have auto rebuild toggled off. If auto rebuild is toggled on then the roof will move instead of the rafters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 The question is, if I change the default for roof framing from trusses to conventional or vice versa, and the walls change heights due to the change, does that make sense to you? If it makes sense to you, I am not sure how we can discuss this any more because it makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javatom Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 The CA knows best stuff drives me crazy. The top wall plate should NEVER move no matter what settings you give the roof or roof framing. Everything being posted is just different ways of going about the same thing. The envelope can be made to be correct by a variety of methods. All these observations are reflecting the framing only (unless auto rebuild roof is checked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 57 minutes ago, dshall said: The question is, if I change the default for roof framing from trusses to conventional or vice versa, and the walls change heights due to the change, does that make sense to you? If it makes sense to you, I am not sure how we can discuss this any more because it makes no sense to me. Yes it does make sense. Like I said...the wall is moving to accommodate your new birdsmouth cut. If you don't want the wall to move, simply uncheck Auto Birdsmouth Cut or change the setting to whatever you want it to be. Like I tried to clearly show in my second and third videos...When you check Trusses (no birdsmouth) it is doing 2 things: Telling Chief to base the roof height and structure settings on the Top Chord setting in your Framing Defaults or Build Framing dbx. The auto birdsmouth is being changed to a 0" seat cut (no birdsmouth). You can get the exact same results with Trusses (no birdsmouth) unchecked if you change the roof structure setting to match your top chord setting and change the auto birdsmouth to a 0" seat cut (no birdsmouth). Conversely...When you uncheck Trusses (no birdsmouth) it is doing 2 things: Telling Chief to base the roof height and structure settings on the Structure settings in your Build Roof dbx. The auto birdsmouth is being changed to a seat cut that matches the depth of your exterior wall's main layer. You can get the exact same results with Trusses (no birdsmouth) checked if you change the top chord setting to match your roof structure setting and change the auto birdsmouth to a seat cut that matches your exterior wall's main layer depth. Just remember what you are telling Chief when you check Trusses (no birdsmouth)... Trusses = Use truss framing settings (top chord) (no birdsmouth) = Change auto birdsmouth to no birdsmouth Also remember that your roof plane will stay put with auto rebuild toggled off and you wall height will only move to accommodate the room structure ceiling or the birdsmouth setting if you have no ceiling. With auto rebuild toggled on, the wall will stay put and the roof will move. Bottom line is that I don't believe anything is wrong with the way these settings function. You just need to get your head wrapped around what they're doing. I don't know that there's much more I can say. I would be happy to do a quick Skype session today if you have a few extra minutes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 16 hours ago, glennw said: Michael & Scott, The reason is not quite obvious when you are dealing with trusses. Trusses build from back of sub fascia to back of sub fascia. The reason becomes more obvious when building the same geometry without trusses. As I said in a previous post, the framing will only build to the edge of the ceiling plane. If you draw your ceiling plane to outside of the main wall layer, Chief will frame the ceiling over the wall. If you draw your ceiling plane to inside of the main wall layer, that's where the framing will build to - obviously incorrect. so Glen are Michael video's wrong or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 And as we all know you cannot frame a conventional overbuild over trusses unless you do it manually. Wish Chief would fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 hours ago, dshall said: Of course I had auto rebuild roofs off. I do not want chief to rebuild them, I have decided where I want them. If CA rebuilds them, do you think they will build where I want them? No, they will relocate. I do not want my rafters to move, that is the reason why I do not have auto rebuild on. Think about it, do you think there would be a situation where you have located the roof planes and you do not want them to auto rebuild thus relocate? You guys must understand I do remodels. There are existing conditions that can not change because they are existing. No worries, I have given up on hoping this type of stuff gets fixed. Scott - if you have multiple structures...with different roof types. Why not build the conventional roofs first and then lock those roofs with the "retain roof framing" option. They won't rebuild or move. Then build your truss roofs where they are needed. This method would keep the conventional roofs from "rebuilding". And give you the flexibility to adjust the truss roof condition as needed to get the design the way you want it to look. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said: ......I would be happy to do a quick Skype session today if you have a few extra minutes though. I have had a pretty ***** day, if you have a few minutes, I sent you a GTM invite...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 hours ago, SNestor said: Scott - if you have multiple structures...with different roof types. Why not build the conventional roofs first and then lock those roofs with the "retain roof framing" option. They won't rebuild or move. Then build your truss roofs where they are needed. This method would keep the conventional roofs from "rebuilding". And give you the flexibility to adjust the truss roof condition as needed to get the design the way you want it to look. What do you think? Nice thought, Nessie, but we in the remodeling business usually have lots of changes both before and after permits, I really don't want to re-do those roofs all day long. We usually can't lock anything until it done being built b/c if there is a change from the permitted plan, the cities want you to re-submit the change before continuing with the build. Just the kind of crap we go thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 24 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said: Nice thought, Nessie, but we in the remodeling business usually have lots of changes both before and after permits, I really don't want to re-do those roofs all day long. We usually can't lock anything until it done being built b/c if there is a change from the permitted plan, the cities want you to re-submit the change before continuing with the build. Just the kind of crap we go thru. I feel your pain Perry. However, if you have a job with both conventional and truss roof framing...how can you make both work. Every time you rebuild the roof to make it work for trusses...the conventional roof will also change. If it were me...I'd give the conventional roofs a "fill" or a "line style" and maybe put them on their own layer...then check "retain roof framing"...then go to work on my truss roof. You can always go back and "uncheck" the "retain roof framing" box... How else can you do it? Inquiring minds want to know... Just my two cents...I don't have much experience with "as-built" drawings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Manually, conventional framed areas will not build over or under a truss roof automatically. Even the overhang won't frame where the 1st floor is trusses and the 2nd is stick build. trusses below causes it not to frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 10 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said: Manually, conventional framed areas will not build over or under a truss roof automatically. Even the overhang won't frame where the 1st floor is trusses and the 2nd is stick build. trusses below causes it not to frame. OK...I was unaware of that issue. Scott is right...Chief, fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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