2D Block Placement Doesn't Match 3D Symbol

[Joe_Carrick]

PLEASE FIX THIS ASAP

 

When a 3D Symbol's origin is offset from [0,0,0] the 2D Block should (but doesn't) be positioned to match the x & y offsets.  This results in incorrect placement of the 2D Block - errrors in CDs - that should never happen.

 

Chief is a 3D modeling program and for the CDs to be inconsistent and inaccurate relative to the 3D model is not acceptable.

 

It's time for a bug fix version of X6 - there are enough known bugs that I'm sure CA's been working on that we deserve an update!!!!!

[Barton_Brown]

Joe, I have noticed symbol offset issues with some of my user symbols that were first used in earlier versions of CA (X1 to X5?) that were automatically brought forward to X6. My easy fix was to go into the symbol dbx and have it create another 2D block. The new block was correctly positioned and correctly sized. While one shouldn't have to do this, the workaround has been pretty painless for me. Not sure if this is the issue you describe but sounds very similar. 

[jcaffee]

I mostly see this with objects from the Viking library.  I feel for you Joe.

 

jon

[Joe_Carrick]

Sorry Guys, you miss the point.  Generating a new 2D Block doesn't solve the problem of matching the x/y 3D origin and hte x/y origin of the 2D Block.

 

Try this simple exercise:

 

1.  Create a 12"x12"x12" cube

2.  Convert it to a Symbol (fixture, hangs on wall) and set the 3D origin to y=-6

3.  Create a Room and place the Symbol against one of the walls

 

In 3D the symbol will be 6" away from the wall, but in Plan View, the 2D Block will be right up against the wall.  Generating a new 2D Block will not change that and I've not been able to find anything that will.  Even editing the 2D Block and modifying it's x/y values doesn't make any difference.

[Barton_Brown]

Joe, you are correct.

 

In my response I was addressing a different issue. My issue was a 2D CAD block that didn't match the 3D symbol. Having CA generate a new CAD block solved the alignment issue between the 2D plan view placement of the symbol and its 3D location for a 0,0,0 symbol origin.

 

Your bug issue is different. I performed your exercise and replicated your results. 

 

At the risk of sounding like CA tech support, I assume you have already filed a bug report with CA and receive confirmation that they replicated the problem? Your posting was intended to be a public scolding of CA? As you stated, there are a number of known bugs that have yet to make it into an update (including one that I reported to CA...)

[Joe_Carrick]

Barton,

 

I reported this to Tech Support and also to Scott Harris and others at KBIS/IBIS last February.  I think I also reported it during Beta to Brian and I'm pretty sure I got a confirmation from him.  Unfortunately, confirmation from Tech Support doesn't always mean that it'll get fixed.

[Barton_Brown]

Joe,

I'll submit a bug report also. Sometimes having multiple reports on a specific bug can up the priority for getting it fixed. At the very least, there will be a new entry in their defect tracking system to get their attention.

[Barton_Brown]

Joe, defect reported to Tech Support last night. Received confirmation this morning that the information was sent to the development team.

[Alaskan_Son]

Please forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't the whole point of adjusting the origin to be able to do exactly what you're describing? I've always used it to adjust for differences in symbols that do not display properly...when the origin does not match the 2D representation.

I think it is working exactly as it was designed to work. Otherwise, what would you expect adjusting the origin to do??

Am I missing something?

[Alaskan_Son]

On second thought...I'm pretty sure I'm not missing anything. I was thinking about it and realized I change the origin for other reasons as well (when I don't want the 2D and 3D representations to match). In particular, I use it for furniture...especially chairs and stools...I like my seating to be all lined up, square, and uniform I plan view, but I like it to be a little more random and realistic in 3D which is why I adjust the origin and why I think it is working exactly as it should.

[dshall]

Please forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't the whole point of adjusting the origin to be able to do exactly what you're describing? I've always used it to adjust for differences in symbols that do not display properly...when the origin does not match the 2D representation.

I think it is working exactly as it was designed to work. Otherwise, what would you expect adjusting the origin to do??

Am I missing something?

I am not sure if I agree with you. How would Joe do what HE wants. He wants the cube 6" away from wall in both plan and 3d.

I wonder if this has anything to do with mt CABINET OUTLETS not appearing correctly in plan and 3d.

[Joe_Carrick]

On second thought...I'm pretty sure I'm not missing anything. I was thinking about it and realized I change the origin for other reasons as well (when I don't want the 2D and 3D representations to match). In particular, I use it for furniture...especially chairs and stools...I like my seating to be all lined up, square, and uniform I plan view, but I like it to be a little more random and realistic in 3D which is why I adjust the origin and why I think it is working exactly as it should.

I'm pretty sure your use of this "feature" is unique.  That said, it could be solved by a simple check box or default providing for the 2D and 3D origins to be matched or not matched.

 

Furniture is probably the only item that I can think of that you might not want them to match.

 

Consider this:

 

If you create a Toilet Fixture you would normally want this fixture to be 1" away from the finished wall surface in both 2D and 3D.  Figure out how to make that happen.  It's the same problem for fixtures recessed into walls, etc.

[DRAWZILLA]

I am not sure if I agree with you. How would Joe do what HE wants. He wants the cube 6" away from wall in both plan and 3d.

I wonder if this has anything to do with mt CABINET OUTLETS not appearing correctly in plan and 3d.

Especially the place in cabinet outlets, they have never worked correctly even though I have reported it.

[Doug_Park]

The ability to offset the CAD from the 3D is used more often than you might think. I can understand wanting to make it easier to line up, but I don't think we want to remove the ability to offset the CAD.

[dshall]

The ability to offset the CAD from the 3D is used more often than you might think. I can understand wanting to make it easier to line up, but I don't think we want to remove the ability to offset the CAD.

Okay  Doug,  so I get this.  But how does Joe do what he wants to do and is it possible?

 

Joe,  I think this is a bounding box issue.  But if I am not mistaken,  the bounding boxing can be relocated towards the front and sides,  but it is always stuck at the back of the symbol.

 

Trying to wrap my head around this and have not quite figured it out.  I do not think it is possible to do what you want UNLESS,  you add a very very very small cube,  6" behind your  cube,  and turn that into a symbol.  The purpose of the very small additional cube is so you will not see it in 3d,  but it will act as a place holder for you.

 

But if you do what I just suggested,  there is  no longer a need to offset the origin in the y direction.

 

EDIT:  It seems like what we need is a WALL OFFSET DISTANCE,  similar to the HEIGHT OFF FLOOR option.

[rlackore]

The ability to offset the CAD from the 3D is used more often than you might think. I can understand wanting to make it easier to line up, but I don't think we want to remove the ability to offset the CAD.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the point is that we DON'T have the ability to offset the CAD from the 3D - only the ability to offset the 3D from the CAD. We should be able to specify the origin of the symbol, for sure. Personally, I don't think I've ever needed the ability to offset the 2D representation of the symbol from the 3D representation.

[dshall]

JC,  how would you use what you want to do.  If you have it defined as hanging on wall,  why the 6" separation and how would you use it?

[rlackore]

 

 

EDIT:  It seems like what we need is a WALL OFFSET DISTANCE,  similar to the HEIGHT OFF FLOOR option.

 

This would be solved if we could discretely set the origin point of the symbol, both in 3D and in 2D.

[dshall]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the point is that we DON'T have the ability to offset the CAD from the 3D - only the ability to offset the 3D from the CAD.

 

I think that is a correct statement.

 

We should be able to specify the origin of the symbol, for sure. Personally, I don't think I've ever needed the ability to offset the 2D representation of the symbol from the 3D representation.

 

I have....  occasionally.  I used it to offset an electrical outlet from the wall.  In plan I want it to show correctly against a  wall,  but in 3d I wanted it moved out . Imagine base molding that is 18" hi but 2" thick.  In 3d the outlet would be swallowed up by base molding,  yet because base molding does  not show in plan,  we want the symbol to display up against the wall.

.......  that is my reply 

[rlackore]

I have....  occasionally.  I used it to offset an electrical outlet from the wall.  In plan I want it to show correctly against a  wall,  but in 3d I wanted it moved out . Imagine base molding that is 18" hi but 2" thick.  In 3d the outlet would be swallowed up by base molding,  yet because base molding does  not show in plan,  we want the symbol to display up against the wall.

 

Got it. I think I recall this discussion in the old forum, many moons ago. I agree we need some kind of resolution.

[Joe_Carrick]

JC,  how would you use what you want to do.  If you have it defined as hanging on wall,  why the 6" separation and how would you use it?

Scott,

 

If you recall the exercise using a Window Symbol as a Wall Niche or as a Bookcase recessed into a wall - that's one of the prime uses.  But it's not just a Symbol that Hangs on the Wall - it's any Symbol that is stopped by a wall (which of course is almost anything at all unless you use the control key or Transform/Replicate).

[Barton_Brown]

After reading Doug's comment and and reading the following from the reference manual: 

You can offset a symbol from its origin point. This can make it easy to insert the object inside of another object, but does not affect the location of the bounding box or the 2D block that   displays in floor plan view.

and the comments about its use for such things as electrical boxes, I now understand why the present behavior exists and shouldn't be removed.

 

Should an option switch be added to provide Joe Carrick's desired functionality? I'm now not sure since I've become very accustomed to holding down the CTRL key... OTOH, precise location every time would be much nicer than can be done with the CTRL key or having to use the transform/replicate function..

[Joe_Carrick]

Okay  Doug,  so I get this.  But how does Joe do what he wants to do and is it possible?

 

Joe,  I think this is a bounding box issue.  But if I am not mistaken,  the bounding boxing can be relocated towards the front and sides,  but it is always stuck at the back of the symbol.

EDIT:  It seems like what we need is a WALL OFFSET DISTANCE,  similar to the HEIGHT OFF FLOOR option.

Scott,

 

I agree with you on everything above.  The point is:

 

1.  We can't offset the bounding box beyond the back of the symbol.

2.  We don't have "Wall Offset Distance"

3.  We don't have "Offset the CAD"

4.  We don't have "Make CAD origin match 3D origin".

 

Any of the above would solve the problem.  PLEASE Doug - give us one of the above (my preference is 1 or 3 but I'd settle for all 4)

[DRAWZILLA]

If you look closely at the washer dryer symbols, you see that Chief has put a period at the back for a wall separation distance, at least I think that's how they do it now.

[Joe_Carrick]

Here's another example:

 

I created a "Window" symbol that looks like a Bookcase.  I set the 3D origin so that it would be recessed into the wall (it automatically cuts an opening in  the wall because it's a "Window Symbol") but the 2D Plan shows it out on the face of the wall.

 

No amount of tweaking with any of the suggested workarounds will solve this problem - but any of the suggested software fixes that I've made could take care of it.