I made an odd roofline on a Pavilion I am designing but it will not behave.

[H_And_B]

I made an odd roofline on a Pavilion I am designing but it will not behave. So I designed this Pavilion structure but I can not seem to get the roof line to act right. I can not get the sections to join one another because I can not seem to get them to line up with one another because of the compound angles. Right now I am basically measuring and then trying to make right the angles to have it math out but that feels like some sort of work around and I bet there is a right tool or technique here I am missing. Ideas?

 

File is to large so I liked it from google drive.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DVsluUZC3q35hbmMPPSRcn7PzbM50mOD/view?usp=sharing

[Kbird1]

5 hours ago, H_And_B said:

Ideas?

 

Have not downloaded your Plan ...mostly because I can tell from your Pics that the Roof Planes are ALL backwards......  note the Slope arrows pointing UP the Roof and the fact that you need a negative Roof Pitch   and the Ridge (86") is lower than the Fascia ( 116" ) ....  , spin them 180° ( with triangle ) , make the slope positive 1 1/2 / 12  and try re joining them with the Join Tool/

 

  

 

Mick.

[DBCooper]

Couple of thoughts/suggestions...

 

First, your plan was pretty big and very detailed which makes it pretty hard to work in (it was very slow on my machine).  When you want to post something on the forum for people to take a look at, you can always make a copy of your plan and delete all of the stuff that isn't really relevant.  In this case, all we really need is the pavilion.

 

As far as the roof problems, I think Mick is onto the main issues.  I did not end up messing around with it but from the picture, it seems like you should be able to just delete the roof and start over with a new automatic one.   I always start with an auto roof and try to avoid manual edits unless I really need to do something that the auto roof can't do.  Back in the old days the auto roof didn't work nearly as it does these days.

 

And lastly, when trying to get roof planes to match up manually, the "join roof planes" tool can be very helpful.  The other thing that helps is to turn on roof intersection points.  Chief also has a whole bunch of roof videos that are very helpful.

 

[Chopsaw]

3 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

the Roof Planes are ALL backwards......

 

I think maybe they are supposed to be....   "I made an odd roofline on a Pavilion"

It looks to me they are trying to avoid the perimeter drip and also not have eavestrough.

I am not exactly sure where the water does go though...  Perhaps to the water feature?

[H_And_B]

Oh sorry I guess I'm so in this right now I really did not think to clarify.

First, that's a good point, I have cut up the file to make it a little more reasonable to run. it runs a little slow but ok on my studio so I didn't think to do that, but it hardly opens on my macbook. New link coming shortly.

 

Second item to clarify. How does the water run off?

 the plan for water runoff from the roof is to slope it toward the chimney then to the roof cricket (will be metal) built around the chimney. This will create two main valleys and the two gutters on the back side will slope toward the two valleys made by the cricket and go into two large downspouts. Then they will join in a Y on the back of the chimney in a decorative way. Maybe in copper in keeping with the river stone rock of the fireplace (house is next to a river) and the sort of shake shingle siding found on the back side where this down spout will be. Picture attached regarding rainwater management.

Third item to clarify. So why have a reverse pitch?

Well I want the roof to emanate from the center up and out because of the acoustics and the aesthetics. I was not able to model it well so I decided not to worry about it for now but the hot tub will have a steal and wood cover over it that combined with that small deck area makes a stage and the shape of the back wall and roof have some math to them to fill the space with sound better and the gabion "fence/wall" around the place is actually slopped small at the top and wide at the bottom to reflect the sound up and back so that the neighbors don't hear it as much.

 

Now the problem.

So I tried running the roof from the chimney to the outside higher arches but the direction the the slope goes in to create the pitch is set by the first line of the roof you draw and snaps to the wall you draw it over so I found the only way to get them all sloped inward evenly was to start them on the outside edge that was already angled correctly. Rather than the fireplace edge that is straight across. The issue I think is that the starting angel on at least two of them is not perfect to the rest created that edge you can see on the second and third from the lets say left (Bar side) The core of my question is can I fix it and how do I just make the roofs clean and right instead of tedious and trial and error angle game. I have some similar but different elements to that for the building on the far end of the property, sort of golden ratio shaped.

[H_And_B]

14 hours ago, DBCooper said:

First, your plan was pretty big

Here is the full link:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-2dyj62F7X6z0Z4LOZj-21r_tOLBCfy7/view?usp=sharing

Here is the cut down link:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-H8jIGXKBALH-hBxnWq2KaX4dL1BhBKz/view?usp=sharing

[Kbird1]

The Full plan is a bear for sure , you have a ton of "Geometric Shapes" ,  and some at least could be done differently eg all the timber framing on the pavilion could be true roof or floor beams , the roof beams should find their own pitch for example once the roof is built and the posts and beams could be done Auto with the Railing Tools.

 

One a Plan this advanced in development you could "break" the Roofs on existing structures if you turn Auto Build Roofs back on , but that would still mean having walls and the Wall Directives setup before hand too , so manual maybe just as quick....  

 

Chief LOVES to snap things to CAD lines , be it walls or Roof Plane edges , so set up some CAD reference Centers Lines ( orange below ) , I just picked the Center of the Chimney and then set up Radial CAD Lines every 20° for example and so they swing the full 180° , these can then be used to get the Walls and Roof Planes all intersect where they should.

 

Then draw the Middle Roof Plane , setting the correct (fascia) height so it joins to the Cricket RP and use copy reflect, to flip the planes about themselves around the Half Circle, pulling the corner diamonds to the CAD Lines as needed ,roughly done below in 2nd pic, though I haven't fix overhangs or angles on the outer edge as I'm out of time, but another CAD Line would work for that,  for precise angles and length , eg use the Regular Polygon Tool to make a 18 sided ( 18 x 20° = 360 ) polygon with 8' sides (Or as calculated)  and centre and rotate it to the orange CLs with the center tool once placed. (green in Pic below) Then snap the outer corners of the RPs to the corner of the Reg. Polygon.

 

*** Actually it would be easier to do the REG. Polygon 1st and then snap your Radial CAD lines to it's points.....

 

  

[GeneDavis]

Flat-deck the thing and do all your drain sloping with tapered roof insulation.  TPO membrane over.

 

Your framing and roofing subs will applaud your wise decision.

[H_And_B]

49 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Chief LOVES to snap things to CAD lines , be it walls or Roof Plane edges , so set up some CAD reference Centers Lines ( orange below ) , I just picked the Center of the Chimney and then set up Radial CAD Lines every 20° for example and so they swing the full 180° , these can then be used to get the Walls and Roof Planes all intersect where they should.

 

Then draw the Middle Roof Plane , setting the correct (fascia) height so it joins to the Cricket RP and use copy reflect, to flip the planes about themselves around the Half Circle, pulling the corner diamonds to the CAD Lines as needed ,roughly done below in 2nd pic, though I haven't fix overhangs or angles on the outer edge as I'm out of time, but another CAD Line would work for that,  for precise angles and length , eg use the Regular Polygon Tool to make a 18 sided ( 18 x 20° = 360 ) polygon with 8' sides (Or as calculated)  and centre and rotate it to the orange CLs with the center tool once placed. (green in Pic below) Then snap the outer corners of the RPs to the corner of the Reg. Polygon.

 

 

Oh that's fantastic. I think It will take a few videos to teach myself to do what you are describing but it looks like It will do exactly what I’m trying to do. I was using the Angular Dimension tool and control move to get it as close as it is now. I know there must be a simpler way. Thank you.

 

So to make sure I understand, the cad lines are basically in 2D here and the roof is snapping to them. Then you just start from the center and go to the outside edge and set the elevations so that you get your correct pitch. Clarifying questions: how do I control the direction/clock position the pitch is ascending in? before I did that by starting from the outside edge but here I want to start from the center right? However if I do then I must also give it a cad line with the reflected angle of the outside rim to start from so that the direction of the pitch is not parallel with the face of the fireplace but instead each section is facing in towards the center and therefore the edges will be able to meet?

[VHampton]

Each facet (fascia) on this thing wants to follow the outside wall... which means that the inverted valleys should be all equal. 

 

On the drawing, they can come from each outer corner of the gazebo. 

 

Meaning that the valley rafters land on the outer posts obviously.

 

The center of the gazebo is offset and that's where the valleys get extended and make this a unique challenge. 

 

Either way, it's do-able.

 

Framing flat looks like the design intent would be different...  since the "look" appears to involve a funnel-like feel from the interior. 

 

 

 

 

[H_And_B]

20 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

Flat-deck the thing and do all your drain sloping with tapered roof insulation.  TPO membrane over.

 

Your framing and roofing subs will applaud your wise decision.

 

Framer is just me Mon-Fri but I have not quite landed on a roof solution I like yet. Basically there is a balcony on the shop/studio some 2 feet away that will look over it so beauty is a larger concern that it normally would be. What ever it is probably not 3 tab.

[Kbird1]

13 minutes ago, H_And_B said:

What ever it is probably not 3 tab.

 

No,  As it wouldn't meet the ManF. Warranty min. pitch of 3 in 12  (in most cases) but I've used 2 or 3ply Roll Roofing ( Torch-Down) plenty of times for something low pitched like this.

 

Try building it in a New Plan , since the main plan is so slow and use Edit Area to copy paste it later to the Main Plan or even bring it in as a Symbol , made in the other Plan.

 

* Val's , (VHampton)  idea should work too with the Polygon Shaped Deck with 8' Sides and negative slope roof  ....as a starting point to get the Roof Planes etc too.

 

Mick.

[H_And_B]

11 minutes ago, VHampton said:

Each facet (fascia) on this thing wants to follow the outside wall... which means that the inverted valleys should be all equal. 

 

On the drawing, they can come from each outer corner of the gazebo, or skip ever other facet. 

 

The valley rafters land on the outer posts obviously. 

 

Either way, it's do-able. 

 

Gene's idea makes it easy. 

 

Frame it flat which it pretty much is w/ an 1-1/4 pitch, but maybe the "look" is to have it feel like a funnel from the interior. 

 

 

 

 

Ok so I am trying to make sure I follow correctly here. So This thing is not quite the way I want it to be yet. But if I have done it right none of the roof sections will have quite the same pitch or be quite the same length. I know, I know, but like I said luckily I’m also the farmer on this so no one will kill me in my sleep. The short answer to why is you don't want any parallel walls in 3 dimensional space for the sound to bounce back on itself. I will nerd out below if you want to read the longer answer.

So If I do this will it still snap the way it should?

So basically the reason for all the odd pitches for the acoustics of the space. So there is some math here that I only understand well enough to get by but the big idea is wavelengths of sound at different frequencies have different measurements. So a bass drum is low so lets say 14' in length but the higher twang of guitar or vocals could be 3'. So the ideas is this if you have a square room then the walls face each other and if you make a sound and they bounce off the walls let's say the room is 10' wide and you make a tone that has a wavelength measuring 5' then it will hit the wall at one interval then bounce back to the other wall at 2 intervals (5'+5'). This would be experienced as a really bad echo but the same room with a 2.5' wavelength would be weirdly canceling and sound dead or even quiet at the same volume. A person listening to this may try to pop their ears or become uncomfortable hearing it.

So you fix this by not having a regular shape. In this case the structure is not a circle it's actually an elliptical shape. The center is not the back wall, it's the fireplace. The back wall is not straight and now that I know of to use the cad lines I will be able to fix the only two walls that still do face each other without breaking the roof again. I also rotated it so that the other two buildings near it don't match up with it or ether. Anyway that's why the roof is sort of a funnel so that it will not be parallel to the ground anywhere but instead bounce the sound just outside the structure and then up in the trees.

[H_And_B]

32 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

No,  As it wouldn't meet the ManF. Warranty min. pitch of 3 in 12  (in most cases) but I've used 2 or 3ply Roll Roofing ( Torch-Down) plenty of times for something low pitched like this.

 

Try building it in a New Plan , since the main plan is so slow and use Edit Area to copy paste it later to the Main Plan or even bring it in as a Symbol , made in the other Plan.

 

* Val's , (VHampton)  idea should work too with the Polygon Shaped Deck with 8' Sides and negative slope roof  ....as a starting point to get the Roof Planes etc too.

 

Mick.

 

Building it in a new plan is a really good idea this little mac studio is remarkably zippy (even if it cant ray-trace ) but still small plans are simpler to work with and the engineer is looking for a lot of detail here.

 

Also, I just realized that sentence reads two ways, lets go "Whatever it is, it's probably not 3 tab"

 

Anyway the wife is leaning metal raised seam but I'm looking at it thinking you basically can't because the seams would create a bunch of V shaped troughs.

[VHampton]

So if you go to the cad shapes, there is an option for hexagons which can be made 12 sided or more. 

 

The design looks like it gets split in half and then the center point is extended. I see what you're doing. 

 

I would try an auto-roof on a pure geometrically shaped deck with headers. 

 

• In other words, build that roof in a new plan, and make it perfection. Valleys all equal and fascias all at the same height. 
• Then copy and paste, and drop the new roof over your slightly irregular footprint.
• Manually adjust the valleys to bear down on the offset center support. 

 

It's a cool idea and highly unique. You'll get there. My thoughts are that the valleys and pitches want to be the same for the most part. Your drawing shows a constant fascia height. 

 

Making varying pitches means that the valleys get set higher and lower. It's gonna get tricky. Something needs to be a tad uniform. 

 

[H_And_B]

2 minutes ago, VHampton said:

So if you go to the cad shapes, there is an option for hexagons which can be made 12 sided or more. 

 

The design looks like it gets split in half and then the center point is extended. I see what you're doing. 

 

I would try an auto-roof on a pure geometrically shaped deck with headers. 

 

In other words, build that roof in a new plan, and make it perfection. Valleys all equal and fascias all at the same height. 

 

Then copy and paste, and drop the new roof over your slightly irregular footprint.

 

Manually adjust the valleys to bear down on the offset center support. 

 

It's a cool idea and highly unique. You'll get there.

 

Ya I think that makes sense now. I have never really dived in to the cad lines side of things so I have some youtube in my future but what a better tool for this.

 

Hey also where did that picture come from? Thats supper cool.

[VHampton]

https://www.dezeen.com

 

Best architectural reference website on the web. 

 

The designer for that is really interesting. 

 

 

[H_And_B]

13 minutes ago, VHampton said:

deezen.com

 

Best architectural reference website on the web. 

 

The designer for that is really interesting. 

 

Wow that is a really cool little structure.