How to raise deck of wall cabinets?

[GeneDavis]

I know this has been solved already and shown in this forum, but my search failed.

 

To hide undercab lighting I want to raise the deck (bottom of carcase) of wall cabinets.  With frameless cabs this requires a light rail across the front under the deck, and doors extend down.

 

it also means that the carcase gable (what many cabinetmakers call the carcase side) at the end of a run needs to extend down past the raised deck.

 

And any in-betweeners have flush decks.

 

This is how I build.  How can I replicate in Chief?

[DavidJPotter]

I too would be interested in knowing about a "lowered deck" but the way I have always done this is to add a simple, rectangular molding to the bottom for this purpose.

 

DJP

[rgardner]

Is this what you are looking for?

A horizontal separation at the bottom is what causes the bottom to be solid, remove that and manipulate the shelves and there you go.

[DavidJPotter]

2 hours ago, rgardner said:

Is this what you are looking for?

A horizontal separation at the bottom is what causes the bottom to be solid, remove that and manipulate the shelves and there you go.

Brilliant!!! 

 

DJP

[MarkMc]

No need to play with shelves unless you want to change the finish of the bottom. Change box construction to framed, full overlay, 3/4" separation, change bottom separation to 1/12" minimum (it's what I spec all the time)

[Ridge_Runner]

2 hours ago, MarkMc said:

1/12" minimum

@MarkMc 1 1/2" ???

[MarkMc]

42 minutes ago, Ridge_Runner said:

@MarkMc 1 1/2" ???

yeah 1-1/2 oops

[GeneDavis]

That'll do for illustration purposes, and thanks.

 

But it does not do what I want, so I will make a suggestion in the subforum here.

 

My specs for wall cabinets, vertically, are, and this is frameless, a 1/8 reveal at top, and at bottom, the door overshoots the deck with a 1-1/4" overhang.  That 1-1/4" is matched on the right side or left side it the cab is an end unit, and if a betweener, the sides are flush to the deck.  I do a light rail molding, a piece rectangular in x-section, 3/4 x 1-1/8 high, and that screws to the decks from below and is continuous across a run of wall cabs.

 

I want the doors at that 1-1/4 line, covering the light rail piece with an extra 1/8.

 

This began with me when I teamed with a partner in the 00s and teens to do kitchens, and we did them all with this detail.  At that time, almost all undercab lighting was halogen, at first, then xenon, and the housings or pucks were all 1" tall, thus the 1-1/8 rail.

 

It is all changed now with the LED strips, which can be installed in a shallow plowed groove, 19mm wide, just like I saw in my friend's custom high style kitchen last night.  

 

But done that way, the lights faced down, straight down.  I am now a fan of doing the undercabinet lighting with the 45-angle-mount strips (section view attached) and so my detail will now be calling for that overshoot to be 1" for the doors and ends, and a 7/8" high light rail.

 

The scheme was all easily done back in the days when I was building kitchens, because I used eCabinets software to buy the cab packages, and in eCabs you can do anything you want.  A totally custom job could do the same, but you would never get this from the big players pumping out stock and "semi-custom" cabinets. 

[MarkMc]

1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

.  A totally custom job could do the same, but you would never get this from the big players pumping out stock and "semi-custom" cabinets. 

I got all the time from demi- cudtom- not box store brands but other semi Showplace, Mountaineer, Cabico, Elmwood, Luxor, .. others.

 

Make a custom door symbol offset on z axis to overlap that extra 1/8", might have to set reveals to 0 and add blank areas where you need reveal, or might have to add reveal amount to the offset. Might need to lock height?  Not at computer to check but have had doors extend 3/4 down. Just don't remember details but doable. 

[MarkMc]

Dragged out the new laptop which doesn't have old files or user library yet. Plan attached. Read your specs, think this is close-door set to 1/8" shorter than cabinet, Z axis offest 1.375", cabinet set as framed 3/4" which matches frameless construction but allows more adjustment. Bottom opening placed as 1.25", cabinet sides adjusted to have opening at bottom. light rail added as molding.

overlap light rail.plan

[GeneDavis]

OOOH!  Thank you!  The blank area!  Opening at bottom to raise deck!  What a revelation.

[MarkMc]

5 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

Opening at bottom to raise deck! 

I did that out of habit since I use molding lines instead of placing in the cabinet DBX. Using a separate molding line allows for a clean gable at the ends by adjusting the exposed side.

The other method with molding as part of the cabinet can be done by just using the adjusted door, shortening the cabinet and raise it. revised attached. IOW the opening at the bottom is only needed if it makes schedules work better. The way this look is usually ordered is more like the method using the molding line BUT depending on manufacturer there may not be a rail at the bottom back unless it's a finished gable end (annoying when they do it that way, messy to fix)

 

overlap light rail 2.plan

[GeneDavis]

20 hours ago, MarkMc said:

I did that out of habit since I use molding lines instead of placing in the cabinet DBX. Using a separate molding line allows for a clean gable at the ends by adjusting the exposed side.

The other method with molding as part of the cabinet can be done by just using the adjusted door, shortening the cabinet and raise it. revised attached. IOW the opening at the bottom is only needed if it makes schedules work better. The way this look is usually ordered is more like the method using the molding line BUT depending on manufacturer there may not be a rail at the bottom back unless it's a finished gable end (annoying when they do it that way, messy to fix)

 

overlap light rail 2.plan

HELP!  I am unable to get the expected result when I try to place my doors in the cabinet.  File attached, plus my doors.  I believe the doors are identical in Chief, one having been created in Chief with p'line solids and the other imported from Sketchup.  By identical I mean I edited the symbols to have same origins and stretch planes.

Red door.calibz

White door.calibz

1812463411_overlaplightrail2.plan

[MarkMc]

3 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

I am unable to get the expected

Sorry, answered this a while ago and went back to work but guess I failed to actually post-duh.

Plan attached with updated door symbol in it on the floor. Offset Z axis to 1.375 as on original -you have 1 5/16 which is a change?

BEFORE converting to symbol door was set to 37 7/8 high, then the Z dimensions is locked-strech plane set outside the symbol so it does nothing. This is where you ran into trouble.

So if you need other size doors you will need another custom door-easy enough to do on the fly.  (also might want to look around for stuff I posted on making cabinet doors in tips or symbols-some time ago. I make them from wall cabinets)

 

overlaplightrail updated door.plan

[GeneDavis]

There ought to be a video detailing this out.  Thanks.

 

But to sum this up in words, the first thing you do is build a door symbol at EXACTLY the height you want.  In my case I want a door for a 36-high cabinet, flush at bottom, i.e. no reveal, and with a 1/8" reveal at top.

 

So I build a door at 35 7/8" height and convert my model to a symbol.

 

Chief's cab-build wants to place doors relative to the bottom-most "separation" and so it is necessary in the first panel of symbol dialog to lower the door by the desired bottom overhang (1.25" in my case), so I go z = -1.25" and the visual confirms by the door dropping down.  Can you see axes in the symbol image?

 

Then it is onto the sizing panel of the symbol spec dialog, where we want to say yes, stretch in the x axis as the default does it, right at center.  But for y, well, we want that door never to get stretched, this is a thing ONLY for 36-tall wallcabs, so we set the stretch plane up above the top.  I used 36" which is just 1/8" off the top, safely away.

 

And NOW one is ready to use this door in a wall cab.  

 

Spec is FRAMED.  Separation is 3/4".  Choose TRADITIONAL OVERLAY and set to 1/16".

 

Now go to the FRONTS dialog, where to make this work for my desired outcome, goes like this:

 

1.  Blank area = 1/16" (because I need another 1/16" atop the 1/16" the REVEAL spec gave.

2.  Separation = 3/4" (this is essentially the top panel of the frameless cabinet.

3.  Door = whatever the programming is delivering

4.  Separation =3/4" (and at this "bottom" of cabinet, the door is being placed at its zero z, and its bottom edge is sticking down that 1.25 we created in the symbol dialog.

5.  Finally, Blank Area = 1.25"

 

And it's sort of a wrap, except that Chief does not auto-build the light rail that is below the cab deck and right behind that door overhang of 1.25"

 

It is the bottom BLANK AREA that is "raising" the cab's deck.  The gables (I love that use of the word, it's from cabinetmaking) overhang the deck by the 1.25".  If one wants the gables, one or both, whacked back so one can get continuous lineals like light rails, light strips, plugmold outlets, one will do surgery on the inside gable of each end cab, and on both gables of the in-betweens.

 

And that is done with the FRONT-SIDES-BACK dialog, choosing the side, going:

 

1.  Separation = 3/4" (establishes the top)

2.  Blank area = whatever (skip and get to the next, let Chief do the math)

3.  Opening = 1.25" (the door overhang number)

 

There!  Wasn't that easy?

 

Not for me, but for Mark the cab wizard, just another day at work.

 

THANKS, Mark!

[MarkMc]

15 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

Spec is FRAMED.  Separation is 3/4".  Choose Full TRADITIONAL OVERLAY and set to 1/16".

 

Now go to the FRONTS dialog, where to make this work for my desired outcome, goes like this:

 

1.  Blank area = 1/16" (because I need another 1/16" atop the 1/16" the REVEAL spec gave.

2.  Separation = 3/4" (this is essentially the top panel of the frameless cabinet.

3.  Door = whatever the programming is delivering

4.  Separation =3/4" (and at this "bottom" of cabinet, the door is being placed at its zero z, and its bottom edge is sticking down that 1.25 we created in the symbol dialog.

5.  Finally,OPENING not Blank Area = 1.25"

 

And it's sort of a wrap, except that Chief does not auto-build the light rail that is below the cab deck and right behind that door overhang of 1.25"

  First plan shows auto built light rail, second requires separate molding line.

It is the bottom BLANK AREA that is "raising" the cab's deck.  The gables (I love that use of the word, it's from cabinetmaking) overhang the deck by the 1.25".  If one wants the gables, one or both, whacked back so one can get continuous lineals like light rails, light strips, plugmold outlets, one will do surgery on the inside gable of each end cab, and on both gables of the in-betweens.

 

And that is done with the FRONT-SIDES-BACK dialog, choosing the side, going:

 

1.  Separation = 3/4" (establishes the top)

2.  Blank area = whatever (skip and get to the next, let Chief do the math)

3.  Opening = 1.25" (the door overhang number)

The left and right separations need to be adjusted in many cases be sure to check the DBX.

 

 I found a simpler method that does not require a custom door. I was trying to create an example (and figure out for myself) showing the logic to how the program is thinking here. Failed at that but this option occurred to me and works. Attached is plan using Traditional overlay (not full as before) As before you have the option of auto-building the light rail or not-both examples are in the plan.

Frameless Raised Bottom.plan

[GeneDavis]

Thanks, Mark.  Gave you another upvote.  A lot easier and it makes it so one can use any door from the "descriptions" class (i.e. without going into libraries) and any door from a library.

 

But you gotta admit, the step taken using the faceframed setting and needing to set the side overlap to MINUS 1/16" is as counter-intuitive as it gets.  I attached a snip from Chief help for the cabinet spec panel to show how that is absolutely NOT clear in their description.

 

One would think setting the faceframe width at sides to 3/4 and wanting a 1/16 reveal, one would set that at 11/16, but try that and see what you get.  No reveal.

 

And the other mystery, at least for me, is how Chief treats moldings in the cabinet dialog.  Crowns end up referenced from top of cab, but anything else goes at the bottom.  Nowhere in the Help Manual is this spelled out.

 

 

 

[MarkMc]

1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

One would think setting the faceframe width at sides to 3/4 and wanting a 1/16 reveal, one would set that at 11/16, but try that and see what you get.  No reveal.

But the cabinet is set to have 0" left and right.

Yeah this could be easier if... but it's doable. Way back I did some web meetings and there may be videos of them but I don't really recommend them as the meetings got a bit convoluted despite my best efforts. I'd ask for variable reveals several times years ago but there was zero support for that so I gave up. It would also be swell if reveals worked the way one would specify them to a mfg. -in relation to the overall cabinet box or to adjacent frame items. They only sort of do. Trying to sort out how they are programmed is how I fell into this solution though

Changing reference to top or bottom is easy enough with a click.

The molding I used for the light rail, a hand rail since I don't have my molding library installed yet, started set to the top.

 

Sometimes the reference manual has info not in help but they have gotten much closer to each other over the years. The videos might have more but I rarely watch them and never for cabinets

[GeneDavis]

Mark, I missed that and thank you for the clarification.  It is faceframed with zero width to the stiles, thus the 1/16" pulls the door edge IN away from the zero edge line. 

 

Clever indeed.