Tried The New Style Palette in X12...

[HumbleChief]

...and have to say it worked OK except for the way the styles are stored in the User Library by default without a way that I could find to save them in to a specific folder. A separate folder can be created then the style palettes dragged in to that new folder but otherwise the User Catalog will just get clogged with Style Palette files with no easy way to organize them. Could be missing something and the cynical part of me, (based on many years of Chief use) wants to assume Chief will leave this feature, just about finished but won't revisit it again to make changes. 

 

Has anyone else tried the feature? It took a little time to figure it out but it works pretty well except for the additional steps needed to organize the style palettes. Would be nice to have a place to store them in a plan file? Or??

 

Curious about others' experience. Thanks

 

Oh yeah, decent chance I don't understand how they are intended to be used. Any help with that appreciated.

[Renerabbitt]

3 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

...and have to say it worked OK except for the way the styles are stored in the User Library by default without a way that I could find to save them in to a specific folder

You can right click any user library folder and create a style palette. You can also click and drag your style palette into any other user folder.

Style palettes are huge for saving intricate window or cabinet details, saving me hours of searching through template plans. With the new delete tools and style palette CA really heard and answered the call from us SAM users.

Need a particular stacked molding detail and toe kick on your cabinet, easy with a style palette. Need beaded face frames..boom, style palette. 

instead of a wall material region you can use a backsplash and save a custom layered backsplash to your palette for things such as shower walls with hardie backer, aqua-bar and tile.

[HumbleChief]

19 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

You can right click any user library folder and create a style palette.

Did NOT know that - thanks so much Rene!!

[Christina_Girerd]

I'm looking into the Style Palettes and was wondering if Chief had any examples already in the Library somewhere?  I searched a bit but didn't find any.  I'm about to create a few of my own.

 

On 2/6/2020 at 5:50 PM, Renerabbitt said:

the call from us SAM users.

Just curious - what are "SAM" users?

[javatom]

31 minutes ago, Christina_Girerd said:

I'm looking into the Style Palettes and was wondering if Chief had any examples already in the Library somewhere?  I searched a bit but didn't find any.  I'm about to create a few of my own.

 

Just curious - what are "SAM" users?

Save as method.

[SNestor]

On 2/6/2020 at 8:50 PM, Renerabbitt said:

You can right click any user library folder and create a style palette. You can also click and drag your style palette into any other user folder.

Style palettes are huge for saving intricate window or cabinet details, saving me hours of searching through template plans. With the new delete tools and style palette CA really heard and answered the call from us SAM users.

Need a particular stacked molding detail and toe kick on your cabinet, easy with a style palette. Need beaded face frames..boom, style palette. 

instead of a wall material region you can use a backsplash and save a custom layered backsplash to your palette for things such as shower walls with hardie backer, aqua-bar and tile.

 

The "style pallet" tool is a fantastic new feature...talk about a time saver.  Wow.  

 

Now...How are you going about naming a style pallet.  For instance...a Kitchen room pallet...where you have a base cabinet with a door style, maybe it's painted a unique color, has a specific pull style hardware, maybe the interior of the cabinet is painted a unique color...and then the wall cabinet is a different color.  Say dark gray base cabinets and white wall cabinets.  Also...is the room painted a unique color...and is the base changed and crown style added.  

 

I find it a bit difficult to name such a complex style with a name that reminds me of what is included.  Maybe the strategy should be smaller pallets...one just for base cabinets...one for wall cabinets and one for the room?  

 

Ideas?

 

Thanks...good topic.

[Christina_Girerd]

Found a weird issue when working with the style palettes..  I saved a couple style palettes that are only base and wall cabinets.  If I select one of those style palettes from my library and select the "Object" spray painter and click on a cabinet, it correctly changes to the new style.  If I select the "Floor" spray painter and click anywhere in the room - floor, cabinet, wherever - all cabinets on that floor change to the new style.  However if I select the "Room" spray painter to apply the new style, it only changes if I click on either the floor, the baseboard or the ceiling!  Doesn't work if I click on any cabinet, wall, window.   Later I had a style palette that was just the room - floor and walls.  When I selected the "Floor" spray painter to apply it in a plan, I could click on the floor, cabinets, backsplash, windows and ceiling to apply it, but if I clicked on any wall, it would not apply it.  Don't know if there are other combinations like that.  Seems like a bug to me.  Anyone else notice this?

 

Back to Steve's comment about how to name style palettes - seems a bit tricky to me too, as I try it out.  Even just doing a few simple palettes of cabinet variations with just cabinet color, countertop, backsplash and hardware variations becomes a naming challenge.  I've started with a general style first like Shaker, Modern, Farmhouse, and then a color indicator like blue, grey and white, etc and then just a number after - thus "Shaker Blue 01."  

 

I also think I may end up with some style palettes that just include variations of flooring, baseboards, ceiling molding and wall color.  Separate cabinetry palettes.  Seems more flexible at this point for the way I work on remodels. 

 

I also noticed I can't select an exterior wall or roofing to create a style palette for exteriors, except for doors and windows.  I'd find it very useful to have exterior style palettes that include exterior wall and roofing material, fascia, soffits, etc, as well as exterior doors, garage door and windows.  I usually finish the exterior of any house I'm working on before I get to the interior, so I'd normally put in the exterior doors and windows at that time, not when I'm just working on interior style. 

 

This is a really great new feature!  Just needs some fine-tuning as we start to use it.

 

[Alaskan_Son]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:45 PM, SNestor said:

Ideas?

-A more complex folder hierarchy

-Proper use of Keywords and Styles (Search Attributes)

-Creating and using temporary Style Palettes.  For example, we can tweak the settings of one single "Modern Shaker" palette to change all sort of little details about it (materials, moldings, hardware, etc.).  It will still greatly speed up our workflow without over complexifying our libraries.  We could also quickly create one based on objects in an existing plan, or just set one up real quick on the fly.  I guess what I'm saying is that we don't actually have to store it to make it useful. 

 

[Renerabbitt]

10 hours ago, Christina_Girerd said:

seems a bit tricky to me too, as I try it out

Christine, not singling you out here but just wanted to respond to this.

I think style palettes may inadvertently do some designers a very big favor. I know many designers who build out cabinets any way they please and let the custom cabinet builder hash out the feasibility. What a great opportunity this is, to get in touch with a vendor and learn their system. Most cabinet styles already have an established name, sometimes a universally recognized name. Most custom cabinet builders just build the boxes and source the doors.

Take a look at Conestoga, one of the leading cabinet door manufacturers: https://www.conestogawood.com/products/cabinet-doors-drawer-fronts/most-popular.html?p=1

Already an established naming convention. Find out what paint your builder uses, my main custom builder uses Sherwin Williams. Easy to spec "Madison 6531" and get an inside beaded shaker painted Indigo.

Alternatively, for cabinets, you could always just use the established name that the style came from in the library

 

I would encourage duplicate styles so that you can place in multiple parts of your library. Like /doors,/cabinet styles, /home style. etc.

For home styles, I use the name of the project that it originated from.

Or for local styles that I have studied for years- regional names. Dimond, Glen Park, Montclair, Sunset-etc, municipalities and their common architectural style in the way that a North Berkeley Craftsman is far different than a North Oakland Craftsman.

 

 

 

[SNestor]

4 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

-A more complex folder hierarchy

-Proper use of Keywords and Styles (Search Attributes)

-Creating and using temporary Style Palettes.  For example, we can tweak the settings of one single "Modern Shaker" palette to change all sort of little details about it (materials, moldings, hardware, etc.).  It will still greatly speed up our workflow without over complexifying our libraries.  We could also quickly create one based on objects in an existing plan, or just set one up real quick on the fly.  I guess what I'm saying is that we don't actually have to store it to make it useful. 

 

 

After using the Style Pallet tool for a bit...I have to agree.  Maybe some general pallet styles...and just "tweak" as needed.  Much easier than trying to create and name numerous styles. 

[Christina_Girerd]

That also makes sense to me too after working with them some more. And since I mostly focus on preliminary design, my clients don't usually have any specific manufacturer in mind yet, so I just need to give them the general "look" at that point, and do fine-tuning later.

[SNestor]

The new Style Pallet tool allows you to add a "window" object...and it appears you can edit this object to your hearts content.  However, when you go to paint the object in a room...or maybe directly on the window itself it appears that only cosmetic things change.

 

The casing, sill, lintel, lite pattern and materials change...but, the size/style of the window does not change.  Not sure if this is the way it's supposed to work...or, it's a bug?

[Alaskan_Son]

23 minutes ago, SNestor said:

 

The casing, sill, lintel, lite pattern and materials change...but, the size/style of the window does not change.  Not sure if this is the way it's supposed to work...or, it's a bug?

I have no doubt in my mind that it was designed to work that way and that it’s not a bug.  you obviously don’t want all your base cabinets in the plan changing to a 24” wide single door and drawer base.  A window isn’t much different.  You want to change the general repeating characteristics, but not the parameters that we typically set on an individual unit by unit basis.

[SNestor]

Just now, Alaskan_Son said:

I have no doubt in my mind that it was designed to work that way and that it’s not a bug.  you obviously don’t want all your base cabinets in the plan changing to a 24” wide single door and drawer base.  A window isn’t much different.  You want to change the general repeating characteristics, but not the parameters that we typically set on an individual unit by unit basis.

Agreed....I just think the tool is a bit confusing.  

 

Seems to me they should tweak how it works.  When you choose an object in the style pallet...it should only allow you to edit what can be "changed".

[Renerabbitt]

Just a note 

57 minutes ago, SNestor said:

I have to agree

Can always create it then export the calibz for your archives and delete from the library. Import it as needed.

 

 

[SNestor]

@Alaskan_Son

 

Ok...one more little issue with the style pallet tool.  

 

If you have a room with "glass walls" (such as a shower)...and you create a room style pallet that changes the color of the room walls...then, this material color will be applied to the glass in the shower.  You will have to manually change the material back to tempered glass.  The glass in a shower is a "WALL"...and as such all walls get changed.  This isn't great...but I can live with it.  Hopefully they improve this tool over time...

It does not change glass in a door in the room...so, if you have place a glass divided light door say in a Study/Den...using a room style pallet won't change the door glass.

[Alaskan_Son]

36 minutes ago, SNestor said:

@Alaskan_Son

 

Ok...one more little issue with the style pallet tool.  

 

If you have a room with "glass walls" (such as a shower)...and you create a room style pallet that changes the color of the room walls...then, this material color will be applied to the glass in the shower.  You will have to manually change the material back to tempered glass.  The glass in a shower is a "WALL"...and as such all walls get changed.  This isn't great...but I can live with it.  Hopefully they improve this tool over time...

It does not change glass in a door in the room...so, if you have place a glass divided light door say in a Study/Den...using a room style pallet won't change the door glass.

I’ll have to check that one out when I get back to computer.  Doesn’t sound like desirable behavior though.

[Alaskan_Son]

13 hours ago, SNestor said:

@Alaskan_Son

 

Ok...one more little issue with the style pallet tool.  

 

If you have a room with "glass walls" (such as a shower)...and you create a room style pallet that changes the color of the room walls...then, this material color will be applied to the glass in the shower.  You will have to manually change the material back to tempered glass.  The glass in a shower is a "WALL"...and as such all walls get changed.  This isn't great...but I can live with it.  Hopefully they improve this tool over time...

It does not change glass in a door in the room...so, if you have place a glass divided light door say in a Study/Den...using a room style pallet won't change the door glass.

 

Just got back into the office and tested this out.  First off, it will change the door depending on what exactly you paint and in what mode you paint it.  For example, if you paint the door itself, it will change regardless of the mode; if you paint the room in anything except Object mode, it will change; if you paint anything on that floor in Floor mode, it will change; and if you paint anything in the plan in Plan mode, it will change.  

 

The glass wall behavior is a weird one.  Seems like there should possibly be a way to set specific things NOT to be affected by Style Palettes though.  Not sure what the best solution might be though because I don't particularly want to see an extra checkbox in every dialog box.  I supposed it could be set at the material level, but then what about things that are unrelated to materials that you don't want to change...a single existing cabinet or door for example. 

[SNestor]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Just got back into the office and tested this out.  First off, it will change the door depending on what exactly you paint and in what mode you paint it.  For example, if you paint the door itself, it will change regardless of the mode; if you paint the room in anything except Object mode, it will change; if you paint anything on that floor in Floor mode, it will change; and if you paint anything in the plan in Plan mode, it will change.  

 

The glass wall behavior is a weird one.  Seems like there should possibly be a way to set specific things NOT to be affected by Style Palettes though.  Not sure what the best solution might be though because I don't particularly want to see an extra checkbox in every dialog box.  I supposed it could be set at the material level, but then what about things that are unrelated to materials that you don't want to change...a single existing cabinet or door for example. 

 

Thanks for looking into this.  Yes...the tool needs a bit of "tweaking".  Still...overall, it's a great new feature.

[Christina_Girerd]

As I am creating some basic Style Palettes, I notice they end up at the main level of the User Catalog.  When we create a new Style Palette, it would be efficient to have an option in in the Style Palette Spec dbx to specify which folder the new creation ends up in so we don't have to go sort it out in the Library Browser later. 

 

[SNestor]

21 minutes ago, Christina_Girerd said:

As I am creating some basic Style Palettes, I notice they end up at the main level of the User Catalog.  When we create a new Style Palette, it would be efficient to have an option in in the Style Palette Spec dbx to specify which folder the new creation ends up in so we don't have to go sort it out in the Library Browser later. 

 

+1.  Maybe next year?

You might want to post this in suggestions.  

[HumbleChief]

57 minutes ago, SNestor said:

+1.  Maybe next year?

Sorry, had to chuckle. Chief rarely revisits a 'feature' once it's released and would be surprised if this feature is any different. I think the best advice is to understand how it works, foibles and all, and work within those constraints. Or wait until next year for another feature that works but not always, and not in all cases. Just part of life within Chiefworld....

[SNestor]

17 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

Sorry, had to chuckle. Chief rarely revisits a 'feature' once it's released and would be surprised if this feature is any different. I think the best advice is to understand how it works, foibles and all, and work within those constraints. Or wait until next year for another feature that works but not always, and not in all cases. Just part of life within Chiefworld....

It took a while....but they did improve the point to point tool.  It can happen.  
 

But, I’m not holding my breath...

[HumbleChief]

2 minutes ago, SNestor said:

It took a while....but they did improve the point to point tool.  It can happen.  
 

But, I’m not holding my breath...

Another thing in Chiefworld is to make improvements to tools that were never requested to be improved, or tools that worked just fine the way they were. The biggest improvements for me in any release are the little intangibles. X12 is perfect example. It's just better than X11. And X11 was just better than X10...

[Christina_Girerd]

I'll put in a bug report for the folder option idea.