pgjacob

Pricing for Rendering

Recommended Posts

Hi All

I was wondering about your thoughts on pricing for rendering services.  I am just starting out and doing some pro bono work to build up my portfolio.  For one of my clients I provided what I WOULD have charged him, and I based this, maybe naively, on $/sq. foot of project, complexity of structure, inside/outside or both.  Again, this work was free for this guy.  Once he saw the price tag, he said no one would pay that.  Essentially I charged 25 cents/sq foot (simple structure, only exterior, duplex townhome so half of sq foot is easily replicated, simple terrain) + $500 for unlimited testing/views for 30 days.  It was about $2300 for two 3600 sq. ft. duplex townhomes (7200 sq. ft.).  I helped with exterior color selections by providing him with different renderings side by side.  So part of this exercise was me testing the waters to see what was a fair and reasonable price.  The client said I should google renderings and see, and he said $500 or so should be enough.  I did see that some firms charge $500/image.  So I guess if I provided 12 images, that would be $6000...I have seen some websites that say about 1-2% of the construction costs for rendering services.  In designing our home, we reached out to a company to do some renderings and the estimate was $3000+ for 5 images.  Then I upgraded to CA vs. Home Designer and said I could to it myself...

 

I know alot of this is subjective.  But I have to start somewhere with concrete data and sq. footage seemed to be where to start.  

 

Thanks

melissa

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Developing a pricing strategy involves a number of factors.

 

1.) Competitors.

2.) Your target market.

3.) Your level of expertise/skill.

4.) Your rendering level of quality.

5.) Your level of productivity, time spent.

 

There are many possible combinations in the above that will affect/determine what you can charge, or maybe better said what a potential client would be willing to pay. The client you worked for indicated that your desired pricing was too high and when you yourself were considering an outside rendering service you also came to the same conclusion about their cost. Did you discuss with your client as to why they thought your price was too high? Is that customer representative of the type of customer you are intending to target? Was your pricing estimation just based on what you believe others are charging or did you derive it based on the value of your time, skill and profit margin needs?

 

There are two distinctly different approaches.

 

1.) This is what clients are willing to pay and as such how do I deliver a similar service at that price and make money.

 

Or

 

2.) This is the service I offer and this is the price I need to make money and as such how and who do I sell this to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, pgjacob said:

Hi All

 

Thanks

melissa

 

 

Melissa, 

Tagging on to what Graham said above, LOD(Level of Detail) is a huge part of this. I typically offer 3 levels for exterior work: stock Chied 3d views for conceptual, Thea render views for color picking and geo-location based environment lighting, and a 3rd level thats all of the bells and whistles with landscaping etc.

Interior LOD includes bare rooms, stock entourage, or custom entourage.

I charge $1k to produce as-builts which include true wall dimensions, footing/foundation details and roof framing etc.(A complete home...which is rarely ever needed to produce plansets.)

The following home I charged $6k to produce from lines on paper to a fully realized home:

this included custom modelling and furniture importing/creating

final package was about 12 images and a PDF of the bare floor plan for furniture layout.

The background image is the actual view of the back property.

all of the colors are sampled from their respective vendors, and textures had to be created to match existing floor and cabinet finishes.

Faucets were created to match existing as well as some plants were created.

This particular job was rushed, so a lot of post processing had to be done instead of doing the work in the modelling program, which brings up mistakes.(like some of the fireflies you see and joinery not being perfect. or plants looking incorrect.)

I never provide rendering quotes based on sq.ft. the variables are too many. I have to bid the job based on my experience of how long it takes me to work a scene.

hope this helps

 

Backyard View FINAL.png

Bathroom_Window FINAL.png

Bedroom Final mT dIABLO.png

Dining_Room.png

Front Yard Tall FINAL.png

LIV RM SUNSET FINAL.png

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rene - Absolutely Stunning Work!

 

That's worth more than $6,000. I hope the client appreciated the skill/expertise and time you put into that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice Work Rene.... I guess that is Thea or Lumion though ? 

 

M.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to all for replies.  I agree, very nice renders.  Just shows I still have lots to learn.  I have now begun looking into post-CA rendering techniques and am baffled.  Thea was mentioned, I downloaded the KerkyThea.  I understand there will be a learning curve.  But this seemed a little clunky.  Thea Render has different versions.  Which to use? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, pgjacob said:

Thanks to all for replies.  I agree, very nice renders.  Just shows I still have lots to learn.  I have now begun looking into post-CA rendering techniques and am baffled.  Thea was mentioned, I downloaded the KerkyThea.  I understand there will be a learning curve.  But this seemed a little clunky.  Thea Render has different versions.  Which to use? 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Nice Work Rene.... I guess that is Thea or Lumion though ? 

 

M.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Rene - Absolutely Stunning Work!

 

That's worth more than $6,000. I hope the client appreciated the skill/expertise and time you put into that.

Thanks Graham and Matt as always. I have showcased that project elsewhere I believe, it seemed a relevant project for pricing.

Melissa, something to keep in mind, most people are perfectly fine with CA raytracing or renders. It's all in the demand and value. I am very fast with my techniques and am now profitable after years of NOT being profitable as a rendering artist. Additionally, it provides marketing material for you as a brand, I own rights to most of what I have rendered over the years.

Most renders are built into the budget for planset's and design as an additional service, as the design gets you 80% of the way toward a good render.

This particular project was used to sell a home before it was built, as most high-end renders tend to be geared toward development phases.

The software I use is Thea Render Standalone Studio 5. I wish I had the time to re-learn Sketchup as it is compatible with Thea's latest add-on rendering package.

I can produce a pho-realistic renderings in a few hours, but I would consider myself a power user with a large bag of tricks...and I was diligent in my VERY frustrating pursuit of learning the software. I still encourage everyone to give it a go, it's thrilling to see it all come together.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THEA RENDER (not KerkyThea) no longer has a studio version, just plugins. If you have Sketchup, then the Thea plugin will work through it.

Another renderer is VRAY, also as a plugin for Sktechup, as well as a little gem called RAYLECTRON (simple and very powerful).

TWILIGHT RENDER too, is also a plugin for Sketchup. 3DS is the best way to transfer a model to Sketchup, in my experience.

 

ARTLANTIS can be accessed directly through 3DS, as well as MAXWELL RENDER and SIMLAB COMPOSER (affordable and quite clean).

As I mentioned to you earlier today, UNITY3D or UNREAL ENGINE 4 are real-time engines, and unlike LUMION, are free.

Realtime seems to be where the industry is going, including OCTANE for Unity.

 

As is very clear on current forum threads, materials are a very big deal to get right---along with light. In the case of all 3rd party renderers, sky HDRI's are essential (Peter Guthrie/HDRMAPS), and there are huge sources available for 3D entourage (LAUBWERK, XFROG, etc.)

 

I am just starting myself, so I agree, lots to learn about rendering....:)

 

PS. I modelled the house in CA, modelled and brought in the hood from SKP, took the completed model over to SKP (via 3ds), put in shrubs by LAUBWERK and then rendered 

in THEA. I used an early morning sky from HDRMAPS. CA geometry is solid: just great to work with.

Unit 1 Front Door copy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Seafield said:

THEA RENDER (not KerkyThea) no longer has a studio version, just plugins. If you have Sketchup, then the Thea plugin will work through it.

 

To edit and respond, Thea Standalone Studio 1.5.08 is available still and is the current plugin version for sketchup...though I would encourage anyone looking to learn to use the sketchup version as it will likely get continued development.

and as David mentioned, materials play a huge part no matter the software you use. Normals/Bump/Roughness/Diffuse etc. maps make all the difference in render quality. 

HDR spherical backdrops and image based lighting/reflective maps as David mentioned can really bring a project to life as well. 

Main problem with chief's models are the sharpness of edges(joinery too precise). I always have eased edge moldings on cabinets etc. to soften everything up.

The very tangible benefit to external rendering programs (as opposed to the biased benefit of quality) is that you can closely replicate colors and lumens as well as regional daylight and how they correspond with each other.  Which can vastly help development issues with lighting and shadows.

Check out some of the tutorials Graham and I(and others) have posted in the tips and techniques boards for CA based rendering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went on the Thea forum and took a screen capture of the particular thread in regard to the unavailability of Thea Studio. Happy to defer, Rene, if I got things wrong.

 - Very sophisticated thinking to be concerned about CA edges in renderings. Something more for me to learn about and factor in, for sure.....!

Cheers.

David

 

 

Screen Shot 2018-02-27 at 3.30.57 PM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Seafield said:

I went on the Thea forum and took a screen capture of the particular thread in regard to the unavailability of Thea Studio. Happy to defer, Rene, if I got things wrong.

 - Very sophisticated thinking to be concerned about CA edges in renderings. Something more for me to learn about and factor in, for sure.....!

Cheers.

David

 

 

Screen Shot 2018-02-27 at 3.30.57 PM.png

I stand corrected..seems I may be forced to re-learn sketchup, thanks David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use SKP all the time as an adjunct to CA. However, now I realize I could try to find SKP plugins that soften edges and do so to a CA model in SKP prior to rendering. 

Good 'heads up'.

Thanks.

David

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Seafield said:

I use SKP all the time as an adjunct to CA. However, now I realize I could try to find SKP plugins that soften edges and do so to a CA model in SKP prior to rendering. 

Good 'heads up'.

Thanks.

David

 

 

Certainly, I've logged a ton of hours in Thea, so many tricks to be had. The two major game changers for me were learning to use channel masks w/object layers and learning to use Presto AO in lieu of MC. For instance, that first render was broken into 6 renders and then pieced together, cutting render time from 17 hours with two machine to 1.5 hours with one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, now it is VERY clear how much I have to learn. Back to the Thea manual and videos once more, I guess......:)

Thanks, Rene.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

 

Melissa, 

Tagging on to what Graham said above, LOD(Level of Detail) is a huge part of this. I typically offer 3 levels for exterior work: stock Chied 3d views for conceptual, Thea render views for color picking and geo-location based environment lighting, and a 3rd level thats all of the bells and whistles with landscaping etc.

Interior LOD includes bare rooms, stock entourage, or custom entourage.

I charge $1k to produce as-builts which include true wall dimensions, footing/foundation details and roof framing etc.(A complete home...which is rarely ever needed to produce plansets.)

The following home I charged $6k to produce from lines on paper to a fully realized home:

this included custom modelling and furniture importing/creating

final package was about 12 images and a PDF of the bare floor plan for furniture layout.

The background image is the actual view of the back property.

all of the colors are sampled from their respective vendors, and textures had to be created to match existing floor and cabinet finishes.

Faucets were created to match existing as well as some plants were created.

This particular job was rushed, so a lot of post processing had to be done instead of doing the work in the modelling program, which brings up mistakes.(like some of the fireflies you see and joinery not being perfect. or plants looking incorrect.)

I never provide rendering quotes based on sq.ft. the variables are too many. I have to bid the job based on my experience of how long it takes me to work a scene.

hope this helps

 

Backyard View FINAL.png

Bathroom_Window FINAL.png

Bedroom Final mT dIABLO.png

Dining_Room.png

Front Yard Tall FINAL.png

LIV RM SUNSET FINAL.png

These look great!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again to all the replies.  I am now understanding these levels of products.  Like the guy that I originally referred to is going to be happy with a CA render, one or two views for a flyer for a real estate product.  Others that are happy to pay for more views and maybe material/color testing still using CA, and then the higher level of photo realistic images, for which I will need to invest some time.  This has all been very helpful, and I have begun to delve into the latter, with my tail in between my legs.... seeing others expertise is daunting, but I do enjoy this enough to try.

melissa

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, pgjacob said:

Thanks again to all the replies.  I am now understanding these levels of products.  Like the guy that I originally referred to is going to be happy with a CA render, one or two views for a flyer for a real estate product.  Others that are happy to pay for more views and maybe material/color testing still using CA, and then the higher level of photo realistic images, for which I will need to invest some time.  This has all been very helpful, and I have begun to delve into the latter, with my tail in between my legs.... seeing others expertise is daunting, but I do enjoy this enough to try.

melissa

 

 

There are plenty of people in this community willing to help, I think everyone hear sees the value in pushing the community forward as their is very little localized peer-to-peer competition in this market. I LOVE seeing new ideas and talents!

Good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you doing all the modeling as well as the renderings?

 

I am sure the builder thought that anything above free was too much...in my experience. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

  • Member Statistics

    27478
    Total Members
    6254
    Most Online
    Oilersfan20
    Newest Member
    Oilersfan20
    Joined
  • Similar Content

    • By CHROMATICGA17
      Need to set default pricing for product/materials to use as default template. This way generating my materials list will be quicker.  I do not want to enter vendor specific pricing.  I want to enter labor pricing for specific materials.  I want this to default to my setting per item/sf/etc. each time i choose that template to start a plan. 
       
      I hope this question makes sense.  Please help.
    • By MarkMc
      Going to have a web meeting (free, using Zoom.us) July 11th at 2 pm Eastern Time ends at 4 pm Eastern, limit 25 attendees. Will be recorded (if I don’t muck that up).
      If interested get in touch -   markmc   at  markjamesandco.com
      Please include:
      what you do (KD, dealer, builder, etc) anything in particular you are interested in (no promises but I’ll see if I can make adjustments) how long you’ve used Chief, current version and what you used before if anything.  
      This is open to all but keep in mind it’s meant for kitchen designers and others who need to create a cabinet order or develop pricing working in Chief Architect (call it a 2020 refugee camp
      In general- creating a schedule with all the information needed generate an order in a spreadsheet template of using an online ordering system. It’s based on part of the system I’ve used with Chief for the last few years as a kitchen designer/dealer updated for X10 (70% of it will work in X9-time to upgrade) The general idea at this point it:
       
      Basic cabinet configuration
      Using the OIP for mods and accessories
      Defaults-basic face configuration, OIP for defaults, few quirks &  gotchas in the default settings
      More cabinet configurations, saving to library,
      library management for brands and projects and defaults
      Q&A-roundtable
       
      Quick design sample
      using hotkeys and replace from library
      Adjusting the modifications per item
      Getting non-cabinet items into the schedule -moldings, millwork, corbels, etc.
      Q&A-roundtable
       
      Schedule and Export
      Schedule set up, multiple schedules
      Checking the schedule against intent
      Exporting the schedule, adjusting the spreadsheet
      tricks to speed pricing, using pdf catalog for lookup, in a spreadsheet template, checking (brief)
      Using  an online system (the only online order system I currently have access to is a complete custom brand I’m going to use a portion of a recording I made in the past for this but may reach out to someone  to work in that part)
      Q & A
       
      IF time allows I can touch on creating detail drawing for the manufacturer, checking the details against the print.
       
      Current attendees not all are forum regulars- CharlesVolz, Cheryl_C_Crane, scottharris, Susan Durling, Andrew, GerryT, Paul Machado (maybe on vacation), Robert Zebrowski, a few folks from QCCI (on a single feed), Tim_Houston, Johnny
    • By MarkMc
      Scott Harris suggested that  to start this thread, in light of the upcoming webinar I'm doing -
      to "also spark a how-to pricing conversation" I'll incorporate anything relevant from this into the webinar.

      So-Cabinet dealers/ kitchen designers, using Chief, how are you doing pricing? What problems are you running into? What do you find lacking in Chief ? (aside from an actual price catalog which I don't expect to happen)
      For myself- been using Chief since X3. At first I would redo in 2020 to get pricing (usually just with an item list). But for a very long time I've carried brands that don't support that or Chief.  Eventually I found a way to get some of the needed informatin into a schedule in Chief and get it out.  I've used Chief schedules combined with either online ordeing system or a spreadsheet template (depending on brand)  for every job for about 5or 6 years now. For along time it was kludgy.
      Since the advent of the OIP in X9 things got manageable, the additons to the OIP in X10 were a huge leap. I combine cabinets saved to a library folder per mfg, default settings, some cabinet hacks turning miscelaneous items into cabinet doors, and using "schedule freindly" items to add things like moldings to the schedule..
    • By lstratto27
      Ever wondered how close 3D Renderings can get to an actual photo? Check out the rendering I just created using Chief Architect software for photo realistic results. Big thanks goes out to Jo McKeown at Great Spaces! in Alpharetta, GA for letting me use her beautiful kitchen design as inspiration. Thanks again Jo!
       
      For more information on design services, please contact Jo McKeown at Great Spaces! www.mygreatspaces.com
      For more information regarding 3D Rendering services, please contact Laura at Inspirational Interiors. www.inspirationalinteriors.org
      Thank you for viewing!