Energy Heel Workaround

[Alaskan_Son]

As many of you already know, energy heels do not automatically generate properly for some of the most standard truss configurations.  Here's something I would definitely consider a workaround but its a lot quicker than what I think most of us have been doing...

 

• Build all your trusses as usual setting the appropriate trusses to be Energy Heels...

• Group select at least all the energy heel trusses, change top and bottom chords to a very small dimension (1" should probably do it), check Force Truss Rebuild, and click Okay...

• With the trusses still selected, open them right back up, check Lock Truss Envelope, change your top and bottom chord back to what they should be, and click Okay...

 

Again, it would be nice if energy heels behaved properly on their own, but until they do, I think this is the best we can do.  If anyone knows of a more effective solution I'd love to know it.

[yusuf-333]

Nice work again.

Thanks for sharing.

[Alaskan_Son]

16 hours ago, yusuf-333 said:

Nice work again.

Thanks for sharing.

 

As always you are very welcome. 

 

P.S.  I just realized that your signature says X3-X8.  You're not still using X8 are you?  I assume you're not and that your signature just needs to be updated.

[yusuf-333]

6 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

As always you are very welcome. 

 

P.S.  I just realized that your signature says X3-X8.  You're not still using X8 are you?  I assume you're not and that your signature just needs to be updated.

Yup Michael, X9 yes.

Thanks for the remainder, but you must update your's too. you are running thousand miles ahead of X9.

X 10.. right?

[jbaehmer]

On 8/25/2017 at 3:52 PM, Alaskan_Son said:

As many of you already know, energy heels do not automatically generate properly for some of the most standard truss configurations.  Here's something I would definitely consider a workaround but its a lot quicker than what I think most of us have been doing...

 

• Build all your trusses as usual setting the appropriate trusses to be Energy Heels...

• Group select at least all the energy heel trusses, change top and bottom chords to a very small dimension (1" should probably do it), check Force Truss Rebuild, and click Okay...

• With the trusses still selected, open them right back up, check Lock Truss Envelope, change your top and bottom chord back to what they should be, and click Okay...

 

Again, it would be nice if energy heels behaved properly on their own, but until they do, I think this is the best we can do.  If anyone knows of a more effective solution I'd love to know it.

 

You could just set the default to raise the roof plane a specific distance (under Roof Defaults) when you draw a plane.

 

Then in the truss, you select "energy heel", you would get this.....

 

 

The one thing I do differently in my template is that I have a wall type for my attic walls that do not have framing in it.  If there is framing in the attic wall, a small wall will be built on top of the exterior wall.  

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

2 hours ago, jbaehmer said:

 

You could just set the default to raise the roof plane a specific distance (under Roof Defaults) when you draw a plane.

 

Then in the truss, you select "energy heel", you would get this.....

 

 

The one thing I do differently in my template is that I have a wall type for my attic walls that do not have framing in it.  If there is framing in the attic wall, a small wall will be built on top of the exterior wall.  

 

 

 

Thanks Jared, I appreciate you taking the time to try and help us out, but your example is not quite the same.  Try creating a much shorter energy heel or try using larger top and bottom chords.  

 

Energy heels work just fine down to a certain point.  Where that point occurs I'm not exactly certain but once the combined height of the top and bottom chord reach a certain percentage of the heel height, the energy heel will no longer generate.  Try getting an 11-1/4" heel with 2x6 top and bottom chords.  

[Kbird1]

I was just playing with this as I usually do it like Jared suggested only we don't usually need 2x6 Top Chords here and it's usually ok but I do remember some kind of Bug as you describe Michael in the past relating to the total height over the Wall plate....not sure you can find old threads about it or not?

 

At least so far with a 2x6 top and bottom Chord my Energy Heel won't build... 

 

And for some reason my Trusses only show in cross section this morning if I turn colour on ???  must have clicked something I shouldn't have

[Alaskan_Son]

9 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

...must have clicked something I shouldn't have

 

I'm away from my computer so I may not have the terminology quite right, but try going to your 3D View Defaults and checking Use Layer Settings.  

[Kbird1]

Thanks Michael phew...you got it in 1      think I unchecked it after watching Scott's 20 minute DSH Workshop video...I wouldn't have figured that one out.... 

 

Weirdly the End truss is generating differently from the Rest...( white) with no energy heel ( it is checked) while the rest do have an energy heel after all (black) ...I only noticed this as I did a Full Framing overview..... In the above pic I had used Cross Section View instead of Back Clipped Cross Section in Error so it was showing the end truss at the very end too , so I thought the E.H. Trusses weren't building....been a while since I played with this so perhaps the issue I am seeing is just mine?

 

 

Not sure Why CA insists on building that small wall between E.H. Trusses either... (Blue)   2x10 vertically Blocking perhaps ...or are some areas actually made to do this?

 

 

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

9 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

the rest do have an energy heel after all

 

...again, you're not reproducing the same situation I'm talking about.  You have a rather large heel height there so you're not going to have the same problem.  Try making that heel shorter or try using larger top and bottom chords.  

 

I'll say it again...Once the combined height of the top and bottom chord reach a certain percentage of the heel height, the energy heel will not generate properly.  Try an 11-1/4" heel with 2x6 top and bottom chords.  

 

I'm actually not certain, maybe it has something to do with the height of the truss envelope at the tail or the intersection of the top and bottom chord.  At any rate, I know I can't get some of our most common configurations to automatically generate properly.  Just try to slowly decrease the heel height or increase the chord dimensions and you should be able to see what I'm talking about.  

[Kbird1]

Hi , I wasn't saying at all you are wrong......there are issues......I just put 10" in as I knew it would/should work.  There is a magic hardcoded Number it seems and the magic number, at least at 8/12 pitch is a Total Height at the Wall Framing line of any number more than 15" ( not 15...more than 15) eg 15" 1/18 , from Top of Top plate to Top Edge of the Rafter ( or top chord) , that will get you a Energy Heel Truss , 15" and below will not , it will generate a Cantilevered truss.  The VRD (Vertical Rafter Depth ) must be subtracted from 15 1/8" to give you the measurement to put into the Birdsmouth>Raise Off Plate Height, (CA Method)  so at 8/12 a 2x6's VRD is 6 5/8" , so that number to get and Energy Heel Truss is  8 1/2"  ( try 8 3/8 = no Energy heel.) ( it seems to work the same if you set both Birdsmouth measurements to 0" and use the Roof Height > Raise/Lower Setting --- GlennW's way.)

 

I don't claim any credit for this Information , it was discussed about 2 years ago according to the PDFs I made in 2015 (attached) and Came from Curt (CJ) and GlennW, from a Thread back then, Curt created a Cheat Sheet for the VRD's at different Pitches, and I use it when needed, I am not sure if the 15" is at all Roof Pitches , (have not tested personally) or has something to do with the % you mention, as I remember several discussions on this over the last 5 years or so.... Perhaps Glenn or Curt will see this thread and explain it better than me...

 

***edit , I tried 5/12 in my test plan and it is 15+ inches there too to get a EH Truss. ( using Curt's cheat sheet again)

 

I am still not sure why after so long Chief still does not Auto Frame the Soffit properly with a Ledger and blocking ,  ( whats holding the Soffit up? ) or why the plywood doesn't continue to the top of the wall , or why the Siding goes right through the Soffit to the top of the top plate.... or why we sometimes get Drywall in the attic etc

 

Curt's Energy Heel Info.pdf

Helping to Understand Heel Heights in Chief Architect.pdf

Roof Pitch Degrees Reference.pdf

Trusses - with Energy Heel .pdf

[glennw]

2 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

or why the Siding goes right through the Soffit to the top of the top plate....

Mick,

By default, the soffit will build through wall layers outside of the main layer, ie, the soffit will build to the main layer.

"The Build Platform to Exterior of Layer" will also determine if external wall layers will stop at the soffit or continue past the soffit up to the top of the wall.

Have a play with those two settings with your particular wall definition.

 

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, glennw said:

Mick,

By default, the soffit will build through wall layers outside of the main layer, ie, the soffit will build to the main layer.

"The Build Platform to Exterior of Layer" will also determine if external wall layers will stop at the soffit or continue past the soffit up to the top of the wall.

Have a play with those two settings with your particular wall definition.

 

 

 

Hi Glenn , you are right the Soffit always builds to the Main layer ...ie the Framing , so you are saying the Main Layer should be set to the Plywood?  At least in this part of the World where all house are Clad in Plywood (or OSB) , I guess I could make the Plywood the Main Layer, but that somehow seems wrong...

 

Still not sure why we get no soffit backing / framing though?

 

I could not stop the Siding at the Soffit and there still appears to be Drywall? on the Attic side of the Energy Heel , so perhaps I have a setting in my template plan messing something up , if that doesn't happen to others?

 

 

And back on Topic   I found that the 15" Limit mentioned above  needs to be higher by the Vertical distance of the drop needed for a  "Reduced Gable end" Truss,  lets say 1 3/4" to get an energy Heel truss to build as an End Truss/Reduced Gable Truss too.  The weird thing I also noticed was that the Top Cord of the End Truss was actually cut down to 4" rather than the whole Top Chord being dropped by the 1 1/2" needed to put out "Outlooks" as CA calls them.

 

 

[jbaehmer]

 

19 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Thanks Jared, I appreciate you taking the time to try and help us out, but your example is not quite the same.  Try creating a much shorter energy heel or try using larger top and bottom chords.  

 

Energy heels work just fine down to a certain point.  Where that point occurs I'm not exactly certain but once the combined height of the top and bottom chord reach a certain percentage of the heel height, the energy heel will no longer generate.  Try getting an 11-1/4" heel with 2x6 top and bottom chords.  

Gotcha!  I wasn't aware of the specific parameters you were going for.  Yes...trying to do that doesn't give the same thing.  I see where you are going with it now.  Definitely an issue that needs attention.

[Alaskan_Son]

18 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

I am not sure if the 15" is at all Roof Pitches , (have not tested personally) or has something to do with the % you mention, as I remember several discussions on this over the last 5 years or so.... Perhaps Glenn or Curt will see this thread and explain it better than me...

 

***edit , I tried 5/12 in my test plan and it is 15+ inches there too to get a EH Truss. ( using Curt's cheat sheet again)

 

It definitely has something to do with the combined height of the top and bottom chord in relation to the heel height.  Energy heels will properly generate for essentially ANY heel height as long as the combined height of the top and bottom chord in relation to the heel height is low enough...thus the reason the workaround I suggested above works.

[DRAWZILLA]

This makes me glad that I stick build everything.

[pintodesign]

I deal with energy heels on a regular basis here, sometimes with a 2x10 top chord.  It's frustrating to have the truss not build the engery heel correctly.

 

" Not sure Why CA insists on building that small wall between E.H. Trusses either... (Blue)   2x10 vertically Blocking perhaps ...or are some areas actually made to do this? "

I do what Jared said.  Use a wall type that has no material for the framing.

 

 

[dskogg]

In my area and I know in many locales in the states where plated roof trusses are used it is common to set heel heights( dimension of truss thickness at face of wall, top of wall to top of truss) ie 12”

I have seen the usage of msr lumber and spf lumber for trusses across USA and Canada and there is a ton of it used.

So my question is why does CA continue to just assume roofs are stick framed and don’t give an option for a heel height? And why don’t they show spf lumber as an option when this is a very prominent lumber being used in the US and Canada ?

Come in CA smartin up!

 

[Alaskan_Son]

22 hours ago, dskogg said:

why does CA continue to just assume roofs are stick framed and don’t give an option for a heel height?

 

I agree, it would be nice to simply set a heel height instead of what most people are doing by going out of their way and figuring the appropriate birdsmouth cut settings or figuring the appropriate Raise/Lower From Ceiling Height setting.  In the meantime, there are a few things you can do in order to directly enter a heel height...

1. In the Build Roof DBX, uncheck Trusses, and then click on the Structure tab and change the Roof Layers Structure to something like .001".  Doing this will allow you to use EITHER the Raise/Lower From Ceiling Height setting, or the Raise Off Plate value as a heel height.
2. In the Build Roof DBX, check Trusses and in your Build Framing DBX>Trusses, change the top chord to .001".  This will also allow you to use the aforementioned settings for direct heel height entry but will also require that you open up your trusses and change the top chord and/or that you turn off auto roofs.  If you're using the workaround in my OP then this is really a non-issue as you'll need to open up and change the trusses anyway.

Pick your poison.  As I recall there are benefits and drawbacks to each.

 

23 hours ago, dskogg said:

why don’t they show spf lumber as an option when this is a very prominent lumber being used in the US and Canada ?

 

Not sure I understand.  Can't you just change the material settings for your trusses?  Just create your own SPF material type and assign that to your trusses.

23 hours ago, dskogg said:

Come in CA smartin up!

 

If you really want to see these changes please report it to tech support and/or post a suggestion over in the suggestion forum; otherwise, you'll likely never get what you want. 

[DRAWZILLA]

And remember some of us mix trusses and stick build all the time to get what we need.

[dskogg]

6 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I agree, it would be nice to simply set a heel height instead of what most people are doing by going out of their way and figuring the appropriate birdsmouth cut settings or figuring the appropriate Raise/Lower From Ceiling Height setting.  In the meantime, there are a few things you can do in order to directly enter a heel height...

1. In the Build Roof DBX, uncheck Trusses, and then click on the Structure tab and change the Roof Layers Structure to something like .001".  Doing this will allow you to use EITHER the Raise/Lower From Ceiling Height setting, or the Raise Off Plate value as a heel height.
2. In the Build Roof DBX, check Trusses and in your Build Framing DBX>Trusses, change the top chord to .001".  This will also allow you to use the aforementioned settings for direct heel height entry but will also require that you open up your trusses and change the top chord and/or that you turn off auto roofs.  If you're using the workaround in my OP then this is really a non-issue as you'll need to open up and change the trusses anyway.

Pick your poison.  As I recall there are benefits and drawbacks to each.

 

 

Not sure I understand.  Can't you just change the material settings for your trusses?  Just create your own SPF material type and assign that to your trusses.

 

If you really want to see these changes please report it to tech support and/or post a suggestion over in the suggestion forum; otherwise, you'll likely never get what you want. 

Thanks Alaskan Son, great work around. After the roof is set then I turn off auto roofs and change roof structure back to normal?

So would I have to set sheathing and framing to .001?

But as you said it is a challenge to calculate distance off plate especially if you have multiple roof slopes , not set up for using  plated roof trusses at all in my opinion.

[Alaskan_Son]

Only the STRUCTURE settings need to be super thin.  On my personal plans, and per Chiefs OOB settings that means only the framing layer.  And no...If you're using trusses then there's really no need to change the structure back.  It can just stay at that nearly zero value.   Only reason to change any settings would be if you wanted to stick with the automatically created truss profiles in which case you would need to turn off auto roofs and change the top chord dimension back.  You'll need to just try it out and see what works for you.  

[pintodesign]

I would also like to see the truss tails generate a square cut.  No matter how I have the roof set, trusses will only generate a plumb cut.

Am I missing something?

[Alaskan_Son]

3 hours ago, pintodesign said:

I would also like to see the truss tails generate a square cut.  No matter how I have the roof set, trusses will only generate a plumb cut.

Am I missing something?

 

You must be.  All you need to do is select "Square" here...

 

If you do so in the Build Roof DBX, you must either "Build Roof Planes" afterward or have "Auto Rebuild Roofs" selected...

 

You can also just select "Square" directly in the individual roof plane DBX(s).  

[pintodesign]

Thanks Michael, but I've done that.  Not sure what I'm doing wrong...

 

Edit:  I figured it out.  I needed to rebuild the trusses. 

 

BTW - thanks for the tip on how to make the trusses behave from the beginning. 

 

Barb