Rich_Winsor

Are These Dormers?

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One of the annoying side effects of using Chief is that I am

always looking at building techniques and wondering how I

would accomplish modeling them with Chief. Here is a sketch

I dashed off of a building I saw while watching TV.

 

Dormer%20Sketch-resize_zpsxfaaqixa.png

 

I was intrigued by the way the lower part of the second story wall

kicks out and provides an overhang to support the gutter which in

turn merges seamlessly with the gutter of the Gable roof.

 

Dormer-RT-11_zpsfgkgtk5s.png

 

It was no mean feat to get all the disparate elements including

roof pitches, fascia heights and shingle texture scale and location

to match up and form the shingled second story wall with a

continuous gutter.

 

Dormer-RT-10_zpsvfdsua8f.png

 

The whole time I was modeling my sketch I was wrestling with the question:

Are these second floor dormers or is this just a two story rectangular box with

a Gable roof straddling the top? :huh: (I modeled it as the latter)

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In this area (see signature) this is somewhat typical.  The somewhat would be that the roof overhang you have on the gable would extend across the back in lieu of the flared shingles.  The roof would also have a 4" pitch or greater which would be accomplished by dropping the eave on the roof so that the window trim would touch or actually be a part of the frieze.  I suppose technically it isn't a dormer but in my area (home of the Cape Cod style) no one would correct you if you called it a Cape.

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I don't think it is a dormer.  I think the walls of a dormer sit on the roof.....  I think.  In this case the second floor walls sit on first floor walls.

 

dormer is a structural element of a building that protrudes from the plane of a sloping roof surface. Dormers are used, either in original construction or as later additions, to create usable space in the roof of a building by adding headroom and usually also by enabling addition of windows.

 

 

  • Wall dormer: This is a dormer whose face is coplanar with the face of the wall below, breaking the line at the cornice of the building.

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In my area they would call it a dormer.  The "dormer" would typically have some slope to it, probably tieing into the ridge. 

Often done on one side of the house only.  IF I was going to do both sides I would do a standard 2nd story.

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This is a typical raised roof as you would see it on many cape cod homes... the only bad thing about it, it's not feasible to have the framing done this way, it's not a practical way of doing it.

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I use an auto shed dormer to start w/ (not a "floating dormer).

That puts walls to the floor & creates rooms.

When I have the auto shed dormer as close as I can get it, explode & edit from there.

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This is a typical raised roof as you would see it on many cape cod homes... the only bad thing about it, it's not feasible to have the framing done this way, it's not a practical way of doing it.

OK, this topic was just in time - I am trying different approaches to this same problem for last couple of days. If we disregard slanted base of upper wall, this is exactly what I am working on.

Greg, what would be, at your opinion, best way to frame this stuff? I have to make a wall dormer with shed roof nested between two end segments of 10:12 roofs, but to aim at one single roof ridge. How would you frame it, and, for Christ's sake, is there anyone with idea how to aim for that same damn roof ridge? I keep getting 3 ridge boards one next to another....

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 Pitch of the shed roofs should be raised to hit the main ridge. I would model it as a 2 story and the fly rafters on the gable ends make it appear to be a 1 story w/ shed dormers.

 

I did run across one the other day that looked like yours and it was 2 story framed and the steeper roof was framed separately above resting on strongbacks over the ceiling joists. 

 

like this -

 

post-501-0-73079000-1448566127_thumb.jpg

post-501-0-22830800-1448566149_thumb.jpg

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 Pitch of the shed roofs should be raised to hit the main ridge.

Well, that was exactly my first attempt. Only...

-If I adjust same ridge height (240 7/8" in my case), differently sloped ridge caps will not align. Trigonometrical calculation of both angles took me half day, and, to align ridge caps, ridge beam  of lower pitch roof should be raised by 1 3/8". Only, in that case, framing is a mess - I had to make 3 roofs, shown at horror001. Framing (Still not manually fixed, but ... still messy) is not very realistic, as you can see. If I align ridge boards, ridge caps are not aligned. Never mind stupid materials and colors, I just used any.

What should be done, to resemble real world, is to make another attic wall below outer upper-roof rafter, that will bear laterally attached rafter of 10:12 roof, allowing for lookout framing of remaining 10:12 wall overhang. I tried to do that, but somehow it doesn't look good. But to make that using one nice straight  beautiful ridge board.

Lookout framing works on upper roof, but I just can't place it on lower roof. Only manually.

post-1711-0-44860700-1448575763_thumb.jpg

post-1711-0-04862500-1448575773_thumb.jpg

post-1711-0-53850800-1448576069_thumb.jpg

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Are you locking baselines or facia ht and then pasting the desired ridge ht to each roof plane? It should snap perfectly.

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No, I was locking ridge ht, but making it all over again. As Roman said, Repetitium mater studiorum. If I repeat that for one more time, I will have to ask for Doctorate - in madhouse.

Problem is that I have several confusing (conflicting) conditions here

- Main roof should rest on plate of 2nd floor, resting over exterior bearing wall. Then, on front half of the house, I need to make 3:12 wrap-around porch roof, that rests on ledgers tied to main roof rafters (kind of gull-wing condition).  If I try to join these roof planes, Chief just pushes main roof back, towards the interior of the house.

Then, above part of main 10:12 roof I have this huge dormer, covering 3 different rooms inside - bedroom, stairway, and loft. I need loft not to change wall height, but if I assign that room "Open Below", it removes rim board. I can't have that, in order to use pre-cut 104 5/8 studs.

Dan Baumman made interesting stuff using trusses https://sketchfab.com/models/b63657c95c68410ba5933cd40bae2af8.

I was thinking to try the same, but, another glitch - client wants traditional rafters for cathedral part of living room.

I think that  DSHall should make great video about these problems wrapped together.

post-1711-0-12189100-1448632999_thumb.jpg

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Charlie, how did you do that? I am probably fed up with this problem, but after hours of different experiments, I didn't came much further from start.

-Is your ridge board one single board, or every roof has it's own ridge board?

I tried to make one single ridge board, but it just won't work.

 Did you make hole in lower roofs? If I break upper edge of roof, and move that mid-part of roof plane down, I lose that part of ridge board. If I make hole in the roof, I get crazy-framing.jpg.

And if I delete manually this "butterfly", next to the ridge board, upper roof rafters do not reach existing ridge board...

How can you overlap roofs like you did on your "untitled 2.jpg"?

Oh Boy...

post-1711-0-75946900-1448640609_thumb.jpg

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 Pitch of the shed roofs should be raised to hit the main ridge. I would model it as a 2 story and the fly rafters on the gable ends make it appear to be a 1 story w/ shed dormers.

 

I did run across one the other day that looked like yours and it was 2 story framed and the steeper roof was framed separately above resting on strongbacks over the ceiling joists. 

 

like this -

I wouldn't frame it to the ceiling joists.  You are then adding dead and live load to the ceiling.  If you stop the upper roof and leave it on a plate on the lower pitch roof you are just adding a slight dead load to the roof and no extra live load as the lower roof would have the live load there already whether or not there is an upper roof....

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You may want to make your own ridge bd and delete the ridge from your roof planes.

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I don't believe this. After all this trouble,I tried automatic dormer, and it turned out absolutely perfect.

Somehow I came to conclusion  that auto Dormers don't work, and always make them manually.

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Good. Auto dormers are the only way I have found to get really clean interior wall/roof junctions.  Get it as close as possible w/ an auto dormer and then you can explode it. Do a save as first!

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