Why Isn't Line Weight In Plan And Layout The Same?

[Nicinus]

I've so far not been using the line weight button while working in plan, in order to get as much clarity as possible, and assumed that was the typical workflow. However, a video by Jim Lawes on roofs encouraged me to try to work in a mode where my view would better correspond to the end result in layout, but I can't get the lines to co-operate.

 

Why are lines heavier in plan? Is that because I have a 1/4" scale in layout? It is the most logical reason to me, but if I export in 1:1 there is no difference. Is there a way to compensate this behavior?

 

 

I have the 'Line Weight' button On in both cases and they cover about the same space on the screen.

[DRAWZILLA]

have you checked this

[Nicinus]

Not really in the sense that I haven't touched it, I have it set to the same as you? Are there separate settings for plan and layout?

[DRAWZILLA]

well, the plan has an icon for lineweights just toggle on and off to see if that's what you are looking for.

[DRAWZILLA]

The layersets ultimately control the lineweights and how they are sent to the layout, if that's how you send them. There are also other controls in the send to layout DBX. for controlling the lineweight, there are some videos on Chief's website.

[Nicinus]

I'm trying to get it to look the same in plan and layout with that icon toggled on in both.

 

Reading up on the 'line weights and scaling' chapter in the manual now, I've never had that button on in plan before so I haven't encountered the problem it seems. I need to somehow balance my scale in plan to that of layout if I'm understanding it correctly.

[Nicinus]

The layersets ultimately control the lineweights and how they are sent to the layout, if that's how you send them. There are also other controls in the send to layout DBX. for controlling the lineweight, there are some videos on Chief's website.

 

I think I have this part right, and I've then used layout to verify the relationships of line weights and then ultimately in the pdf before print.

 

What I'm trying now though is to get it to look the same in plan, so that it matches how it will look in layout. I've never bothered about this part before as I had the line weight icon off in plan.

[DRAWZILLA]

I don't think you can have the plan and layout look the same because you are looking at the same thing at different zoom levels. Just control your lineweights using the layersets, run a test print an see witch ones need adjustments. Once the layersets are good then don't worry about what the plan view looks like.

[Nicinus]

Thanks Perry, it sure is a bit messy to wrap my head around. The concept of having two drawing sheet setups, one for plan and for layout confuses me a bit. As I understand one always work in 1:1 in plan and then a suitable scale to fit the paper in layout, so it is not immediately clear to why one needs a drawing sheet setup in the plan part.

 

Anyway, if I have the drawing scale in plan and layout both being 1 in = 1 in, and then the scale of the view in layout 1/4 in = 1 ft, I seem to be able to compensate the line weight preview in plan to that of layout by setting a line weight of 1 = 1/2 mm in plan and keeping the 1/100 mm in layout. That gives a line weight scale difference of 50x, which is close to the 48x of 1/4 in = 1 ft.

 

I think I'm happy now, but it would be interesting to hear if someone else do the same? I haven't yet printed but since I'm not changing anything on the layout side I assume I should be good?

[ebdesign]

When you send any view to layout, be sure to select "Use Layout Line Scaling" in the Send to Layout dbx. Leave your Drawing Sheet Setup/ Advanced Line Wgt Options in plan @ 1=1/100.0mm. Have the same exact thing in layout.

Then it's just a matter of getting each layer's display properties what you want for each particular layer set. A line wgt of 25, for example, will print the same thickness regardless of the drawing scale used in layout. You can print the floor plan from plan view or from the layout, they will look the same as long as the layer set is the same in both views.

[glennw]

Leave your Drawing Sheet Setup/ Advanced Line Wgt Options in plan @ 1=1/100.0mm.

 

 

Keep in mind that with this settings a line weight of 25 will print at .25mm thick which is easy to relate to the old Rotring pen sizes that us old fellas will remember.

[ebdesign]

If you have views already sent to layout, you can enable "Use Layout Line Scaling" by right-clicking on the view border & accessing "Change Scale" on the Edit toolbar that pops up.

[Nicinus]

I'm not at the desk right now so I can't try it out, but so what you are saying is that my reasoning above is faulty or another way of doing it?

 

It does seem to work so I would like to understand why it isn't.

[Nicinus]

Ok, so I'm doing exactly what I think you guys are saying. First I create a simple (albeit admittedly weird) little floor plan and make all normal walls 50 (double the old rotring  ) as per below:

 

 

As you can see most lines are thin even though the 'Line Weight' icon is toggled on, in fact no difference except on dotted lines when I toggle it.

 

I then check the Drawing Sheet Setup and makes sure it is as below, and then sends it to layout in scale 1/4" and makes sure "Use Layout Line Scaling" is toggled:

 

 

However, looking at the now scaled view in layout the lines are thicker (as I would expect at 50).

 

 

Am I doing something wrong here, and were the view in plan and layout supposed to look similar in terms of line weight? It seems to me that the result I get is due to the view in layout being scaled 48 times, and the only way to compensate for this in plan (which is at 1:1 like the layout drawing sheet) is to change the preview line weight in plan from 1/100 to 1/2, a 50x factor. When I do this in plan they become the same as below screen shot from plan after change:

 

 

Jim, I noticed in your bay roofs 2 video from another thread that you have the line weight icon toggled on when you are working in plan. Does that line weight represent exactly what you see in layout later?

 

PS. I have a kind of suspicion that some of of my issues comes from setting the drawing scale to 1 in = 1 in in the drawing sheet setup, as it doesn't seem to default to that?

 

I got a bit stuck here so all help is truly appreciated.

[glennw]

Nicinus,

 

There is no particular reason why your screen and printed line weights should be the same.

Screen weights depend on the resolution of your monitor and zoom level.

 

In your Drawing Sheet Setup dbx, the Drawing Scale should be 1/4" = 1'0".

Not 1" = 1" as you show.

This should be the default for floor plans if this is the scale that you would normally send a floor plan to layout.

 

Secondly, with Line Weights toggled on, the line thickness in plan will change as you zoom in and out. 

The display of line weights in floor plan are not absolute in that they can be influenced by your monitor resolution. 

Zoom right in on a wall and see the line thickness increases - this assumes that you have some thick line weights in your wall definition and: 

 

There are some catches though, especially with walls.

Wall lines (and cad lines, etc) can be defined by layer OR by the wall (or cad line) definition.

I always like to define my wall layers Line Weight by unchecking "By Layer" in the Wall Type Definitions dbx.

This then overrides the Line Weight setting for the Walls, Normal layer in the Layer Display Options dbx. 

 

Now, there is a further setting that can affect the display of line weights.

Go Preferences...Appearance...Line Weights...Minimum Display Weight.

Try setting this to zero.

[lbuttery]

Glenn:

 

here is another recorded macro:

 

1. turn on recorder

2. In your Drawing Sheet Setup dbx, the Drawing Scale should be 1/4" = 1'0"

3. set Line Weights toggled on 

4. loop thru wall types dbx and define all wall layers Line Weight by unchecking "By Layer" in the Wall Type

    Definitions dbx

5. Go Preferences...Appearance...Line Weights...Minimum Display Weight and set to zero

6. turn off recorder

7. save macro as "line weight settings"

 

then run this macro whenever needed in any plan needed

or after playing around with line weight settings while checking out someone's plan etc

 

Lew

[ebdesign]

Nicinus,

I think of "Show Line wgts" as a VISUAL aid to help me distinguish between different line styles in the same view. w/out it enabled, all line work displays the same thickness, regardless of the assigned wgt. It makes linework "pop" in a video or screen capture, so I will enable that if I remember to do so. Normally, I don't have that enabled while I'm working. I also use it as a kind of pre print check for elevations & sections in layout as I use the "Edit Layout" tool. AS Glenn said, what you see is largely determined by your screen resolution.

What "Use Layout Line Scaling"  controls is the PRINTED output. A line w/ a specifc wgt will print exactly the same thickness regardless of scale or source of the view. All you have to figure out is what wgt do you want to assign to this layer/line/object in a specific layer set. Drawing scale is NOT a consideration at all. I generally advise to start w/ a basic line or a wall, determine what line wgt prints how you want, & then go from there (up/down) w/ the line wgt you use for each layer.

[DRAWZILLA]

Glenn:

 

here is another recorded macro:

 

1. turn on recorder

2. In your Drawing Sheet Setup dbx, the Drawing Scale should be 1/4" = 1'0"

3. set Line Weights toggled on 

4. loop thru wall types dbx and define all wall layers Line Weight by unchecking "By Layer" in the Wall Type

    Definitions dbx

5. Go Preferences...Appearance...Line Weights...Minimum Display Weight and set to zero

6. turn off recorder

7. save macro as "line weight settings"

 

then run this macro whenever needed in any plan needed

or after playing around with line weight settings while checking out someone's plan etc

 

Lew

Lew, you can do all that with anno-sets

[Doug_Park]

In your post your comparison images are not at the same zoom level which makes it hard to make a valid comparison.

 

Assuming your setup is as you showed, you have line weights on in both images, and you are using the same layer set in layout, they should look the same if you are at the same zoom level in layout and in plan. Do a side by side view of both plan and layout and get them to be same size and they should look the same. It is also better to zoom in far enough so that adjacent lines are clearly separated.

 

As you zoom in/out some adjacent lines will tend to overlap on screen, especially with the older lower resolution displays. I think that is what you are seeing. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to draw a line thinner than 1 pixel on screen.

 

The best test is to print each view to the same paper size, DPI and scaling in each view.

[lbuttery]

Perry:

 

how can those steps be done via anno-set ?

 

if so, then why did Glenn post them for the OP ???

 

don't like that example - then look for other uses

there are a "zillion" of them if you care to open your mind

 

Lew

[DRAWZILLA]

Lew

All my lineweights for elevations sent to the layout,t are in an anno-set called "Elevation anno-set" I have lots of different anno-sets for different views sent to layout all with different lineweights depending what I need. Wall elevations are different than elevations. All I have to do is switch to the correct anno-set I need then send it to the layout.

[Nicinus]

In your post your comparison images are not at the same zoom level which makes it hard to make a valid comparison.

 

Assuming your setup is as you showed, you have line weights on in both images, and you are using the same layer set in layout, they should look the same if you are at the same zoom level in layout and in plan. Do a side by side view of both plan and layout and get them to be same size and they should look the same. It is also better to zoom in far enough so that adjacent lines are clearly separated.

 

As you zoom in/out some adjacent lines will tend to overlap on screen, especially with the older lower resolution displays. I think that is what you are seeing. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to draw a line thinner than 1 pixel on screen.

 

The best test is to print each view to the same paper size, DPI and scaling in each view.

 

I don't think that's it, they both covered the whole screen, each on it's own 30" screen (at 2560x1600). The only difference would be that the drawing scale on plan was 1:1 and in the layout view 1/4"=1'

[Doug_Park]

The images you posted do not appear to be at the same on screen zoom level to me.

 

Zoom in until all you can see is one door or window on both screens.

 

The attached is one I did.

[Nicinus]

There is no particular reason why your screen and printed line weights should be the same.

Screen weights depend on the resolution of your monitor and zoom level.

 

This is what I'm trying to come as close as possible with the line weight preview, right? It seems as 1/100mm is ok, my concern is not going to paper, it is to have the same going between plan and layout.

 

 

Secondly, with Line Weights toggled on, the line thickness in plan will change as you zoom in and out. 

The display of line weights in floor plan are not absolute in that they can be influenced by your monitor resolution. 

Zoom right in on a wall and see the line thickness increases - this assumes that you have some thick line weights in your wall definition and: 

 

Yes, but it should behave the same in Plan and Layout, right?

 

 

Nicinus,

I think of "Show Line wgts" as a VISUAL aid to help me distinguish between different line styles in the same view. w/out it enabled, all line work displays the same thickness, regardless of the assigned wgt. It makes linework "pop" in a video or screen capture, so I will enable that if I remember to do so. Normally, I don't have that enabled while I'm working. I also use it as a kind of pre print check for elevations & sections in layout as I use the "Edit Layout" tool. AS Glenn said, what you see is largely determined by your screen resolution.

What "Use Layout Line Scaling"  controls is the PRINTED output. A line w/ a specifc wgt will print exactly the same thickness regardless of scale or source of the view. All you have to figure out is what wgt do you want to assign to this layer/line/object in a specific layer set. Drawing scale is NOT a consideration at all. I generally advise to start w/ a basic line or a wall, determine what line wgt prints how you want, & then go from there (up/down) w/ the line wgt you use for each layer.

 

Yes, I'm only talking about the visual aid here. It has always looked correct for me in Layout by setting the line weights in my layers, etc. and my prints have always been close to that of Layout. However, if I toggled the line weight button on in PLAN, it would suddenly look complete bananas with typcally huge thick lines. As I'm ideally trying to use a work flow where I do all work in plan, and then copies it to layout without doing any adjustments there at all, it is very desireable for me to have the same line weight when working (or at least checking) in plan as I have in layout. I want to get away from doing all the work, sending to layout, and then starting to worry about line weight.

 

I do think I have it working the way I was hoping now (although I'm not entirely sure, especially given some of the feedback). There seems to be two ways of getting there:

 

A/ My initial reasoning was that both drawing sheet setups should be set to 1" = 1" as I'm working in plan at full scale, and in layout it refers to the size of the paper. I then get a visual discrepancy in plan as my end result is set at 1/4"=1' or 1:48 so if I want to see a correct preview I have to change the preview line weight a factor of 48, or in this case 50, from 1/100 to 1/2.

 

B/ As Glenn says, if I know I'm sending to layout in a certain scale I can input that scale in the Drawing Scale and then keep the line weight preview at 1/100 as it will then be the same in plan as in layout. This assumes you have layout's drawing sheet setup set to 1:1 (which you will get a warning if you try to change anyway).

 

I think the latter solution is the simpler one as you don't have to calculate the preview scale, but in a way the former is more elegant. If you want to send your plan to layout in multiple versions in different scales (like a zoom in) or if you haven't decided on paper size or final scale yet, it is perhaps more logical to vary the preview, as that really is what it's all about.

[Doug_Park]

In plan and layout. Line weight scale must be the same. There are no cases that I'm aware of where it makes sense for these to be different.

 

In plan, set the scale to what you plan to send to layout at. 1/4 in = 1 ft in your case. This is also the scale that is used to populate the Send to Layout dialog.

 

In layout, the print scale should always be 1:1.

 

Send to layout at 1/4 in = 1 ft and things will look the same as in plan.

 

Send to layout at 1/8 in = 1 ft choosing use Layout Line Scaling, which is the default and what you almost certainly always want, and you should see some differences in line weights. See attached images. What this will do is keep the line weight the same on paper for both the 1/8 in and 1/4 in views.

 

These are the out of box defaults for the template plans we ship with Chief.