Is this a type of roof return? If so, how do I make CA create them automatically?

[mgianzero]

Here's my plan showing two roof returns that I manually draw with Chief.

 

One on backside of house:

Another on side of house:

 

Is there a way to make CA draw these automatically? 

 

I would prefer to do it that way since I am remodeling part of this house and have to redraw roof panes every time I change an option.

 

House As Built (11-18-20).zip

[SNestor]

@mgianzero

 

Auto Roof returns...really only work on full gable end walls.  See screen clip below taken from the Chief X12 Manual. The way you did it is the way it has to be done.

 

[ACADuser]

Me too.

Break & Drag

Easy

[DougDM]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:06 PM, mgianzero said:

Here's my plan showing two roof returns that I manually draw with Chief.

 

One on backside of house:

Another on side of house:

 

Is there a way to make CA draw these automatically? 

 

I would prefer to do it that way since I am remodeling part of this house and have to redraw roof panes every time I change an option.

 

House As Built (11-18-20).zip

 

It's called a "Belt Line" As mentioned it's easier to just do it manual, Select roof plane, hit the #3 key (for break) and click on the roof plane where the dormer corner meets the roof, then select the edge of the roof and drag the lower section over along the dormer.

[mgianzero]

Yes, I know it is easy but a little frustrating.  It would be nice if I could keep auto roof roof rebuild on and not worry about it.  

 

But, while I have some attention here on my roof design, perhaps I can get some other roof-related questions answered.

 

1). My facia boards are not really plumb, but rather square on this house and when I draw them that way, the rafter tails show through.  See here with red oval.

 

Why is this?  I see no option to trim these.

 

2). I then vaulted part of the kitchen area and part of the exterior wall is shown inside the house like this (see highlights):

 

So how do I cover up this wall with drywall without changing the same wall that is an exterior wall on second floor shown here?

 

 

[rgardner]

2 hours ago, mgianzero said:

Yes, I know it is easy but a little frustrating.  It would be nice if I could keep auto roof roof rebuild on and not worry about it.  

 

But, while I have some attention here on my roof design, perhaps I can get some other roof-related questions answered.

 

1). My facia boards are not really plumb, but rather square on this house and when I draw them that way, the rafter tails show through.  See here with red oval.

 

Why is this?  I see no option to trim these.

 

2). I then vaulted part of the kitchen area and part of the exterior wall is shown inside the house like this (see highlights):

 

So how do I cover up this wall with drywall without changing the same wall that is an exterior wall on second floor shown here?

 

 

For question 1 would need to see your plan file or at least pix of the roof settings dbx.

 

for question 2 try checking out the bottom of the roof tab in the wall dbx for that wall.

[mgianzero]

17 hours ago, solver said:

 

What I show above is using auto roofs.

 

Well, I have some people saying this can't be done on this style roof like SNestor who says "Roof returns...really only work on full gable end walls" and yet you claim it works.  I continued to play around with it and still can't seem to get it to work.  Perhaps you can show me how this is done on my plan  I provided the plans in the original post.

[mgianzero]

15 hours ago, rgardner said:

For question 1 would need to see your plan file or at least pix of the roof settings dbx.

 

I DID provide the plan file in the original post.  All you need to do is change from plumb to square and redraw the roof and you'll get what I showed.  Apparently when there are diagonal rafters drawn, CA has those rafter tails pierce through the facia boards.  I don't see how to change that.

 

 

15 hours ago, rgardner said:

 

for question 2 try checking out the bottom of the roof tab in the wall dbx for that wall.

 

YES, I got that to work!  I didn't see the option that says "Lower wall type if split by butted roof" as an option until I scrolled lower and saw it.  Thank you!

 

 

[mgianzero]

Eric,

 

I don't think you're following me here.  I'm not asking how to turn on auto roof rebuild.  I'm asking how to setup Chief to auto-build that specific roof return that I have to manually draw.

 

So how do you do that on my plan?  I can't seem to get that to work like you said I could.

[rgardner]

1 hour ago, mgianzero said:

Eric,

 

I don't think you're following me here.  I'm not asking how to turn on auto roof rebuild.  I'm asking how to setup Chief to auto-build that specific roof return that I have to manually draw.

 

So how do you do that on my plan?  I can't seem to get that to work like you said I could.

He answered you if you look at what he wrote.  Eric is right it can be done with auto roof.  I do 95% of my roofs with auto build.  On this one even though I follow exactly how Eric is saying to do it for auto roofs the extra effort isn’t worth it for me as it’s such a simple manual over-ride I would just manually adjust it after my roof was good to go.

[mgianzero]

23 hours ago, rgardner said:

He answered you if you look at what he wrote.  Eric is right it can be done with auto roof.  I do 95% of my roofs with auto build.  On this one even though I follow exactly how Eric is saying to do it for auto roofs the extra effort isn’t worth it for me as it’s such a simple manual over-ride I would just manually adjust it after my roof was good to go.

 

 

Yes, I got it.  Thank you.  Too much work to delete and redraw 2nd floor just to include roof belt in auto-building of roof.  

[rgardner]

1 minute ago, mgianzero said:

 

 

Yes, I got it.  Thank you.  Too much work to delete and redraw 2nd floor just to include roof belt in auto-building of roof.  

Actually the way you would do it would be adding on the main floor and has nothing to do with the upstairs.  Roofs build over rooms, even invisible rooms with no floor...

[mgianzero]

"Actually the way you would do it would be adding on the main floor and has nothing to do with the upstairs.  Roofs build over rooms, even invisible rooms with no floor..."

 

 

I guess I'm still not really following.  So are you saying I shouldn't make a second story, but just add a room above?  If so, how do I do that?

 

For just an exercise, I took the single story home and added a second, one-room floor and it draws roof planes okay.  But as soon as I move the second story wall to coincide with the first floor wall, it removes the 1st floor roof plane, which I don't want.  

 

See my plan as an example. 

 

 

Are there roof defaults that should be changed?

 

 

2nd story roof.zip

[mgianzero]

3 hours ago, solver said:

Roofs build over rooms, so create a room on the 1st floor where you want the roof, change a few settings in the walls used to define the room, and auto build the roof.

 

 

It won't be perfect because this exposes a bug in the roof builder, but you can get it really close and it will be automatic.

 

Well, if you mean that I should make that room on the first floor with higher ceilings so that it looks as though it's on a 2nd floor, that won't work for my design because the house has a room on the second story with a floor under it.  Unless I am misunderstanding here.  Maybe you can relook at my plan in the original post and change it to work and send it back as proof that it works.  

 

I also recreated the same problem on a smaller model I attached to this post. 

Roof beltline : attic walls.zip

 

I can get away with a belt-line roof on first floor if I do not overlap the first and second story common walls.  But once I do, CA eliminates the roof plane between these two floors.  Is this the bug you were referring to?

 

Here's a pic from my sample plan with two walls close, but not overlapping to maintain the lower roof plane.  This won't work for my purposes since wall dimensions for other measurements would be off.

 

 

Also, my second problem that I mentioned before is the different materials on the attic walls on exposed vaulted rooms is still a problem.  I was successful once when I chose "Lower Wall Type of Split by Butting Roof" option.  But it doesn't always work.  For example, in this small plan I've attached, notice  even if I delete all the auto-generated attic walls and recreate them with auto-build roof option, CA recreates the same attic walls with stucco inside instead of drywall.  Despite the wall types being selected appropriately.

Are there defaults that are not set properly?

 

 

[glennw]

Marc

To clarify about the roof 

Draw a single storey room on the ground floor only, where you want the extra roof, outside the existing building.

No floor, roof or ceiling, invisible walls.

Auto roofs.

Configure  the room parameters to get the auto roof you want

[mgianzero]

42 minutes ago, glennw said:

Marc

To clarify about the roof 

Draw a single storey room on the ground floor only, where you want the extra roof, outside the existing building.

No floor, roof or ceiling, invisible walls.

Auto roofs.

Configure  the room parameters to get the auto roof you want

 

Yes, thank you Glenn!  That's concise and now I can follow.  I also saw Eric's personal video he made for me.  I know it was asking a lot to do this, but that finally sinks in with me.  Thank you.  However, after watching Eric's video, I'd like to emphasize something he said in the video. --  "well, it seems like it's simple to do this, but it's not.  And CA doesn't do what you'd expect."

 

Again, thanks everyone for that clarification!  I'm glad I pushed on this topic because it helps to solidify in my mind how CA works and how you can think of ways around little obstacles.  It also gives me a little more insight into how the roof builder works, which was completely confusing to me the first time I looked at it.  The "belt-line" roof plane wasn't that critical to my design, but I wanted to understand more of how the roof tool works.  I wouldn't have thought to use a no floor, ceiling with invisible walls outside the  structure like this.

 

Well, this discussion answered my first question.  Does any one have any answers to my subsequent question about the auto-generation of attic walls and why CA is creating the wrong materials on these walls, which show once my ceilings are vaulted?  I've demonstrated this in two separate plans which I submitted here.  Again, I've played around with it for days and the whole attic wall auto-generating concept is confusing to me too.  If I knew what Chief was trying to do, then I could perhaps tell it to do it differently.

 

 

Marc

 

 

[glennw]

Marc

I am travelling until the middle of next week

I will have a look at it next week if you haven’t received an answer by then

[rgardner]

6 hours ago, mgianzero said:

I wouldn't have thought to use a no floor, ceiling with invisible walls outside the  structure like this.

 

 

 

 

On 11/24/2020 at 3:03 PM, rgardner said:

Actually the way you would do it would be adding on the main floor and has nothing to do with the upstairs.  Roofs build over rooms, even invisible rooms with no floor...

 

[mgianzero]

Just now, solver said:

 

It's not a problem when I draw a similar plan. 

 

Suggest you do the same. Are you using a standard Template, or one of your own?

 

Yes, I created my own Template and I think that's the core of my problem.  I must have changed something there and I don't know what.  I researched it a bit on ChiefTalk and saw that Glenn had suggested to someone to unselect "auto-build attic walls" and delete all the attic walls and the re-select to let CA redraw them for me, but the program redrew them the same way.  So, I think I somehow changed something in my preferences or defaults to do that.  

 

[mgianzero]

I'm not sure the etiquette here regarding posting, but I'm guessing I should make this a new topic, so I did.