Chasing Attic Walls...

[HumbleChief]

7 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

See if this helps you at all...

 

 

THANK YOU Michael, that wall was certainly the culprit but as you probably guessed I have no idea how that got there but suspect it was from my original plan template walls, and it only shows on the attic with all layers on so I never saw it. I did indeed change my default exterior and interior wall layers as it seems to help me further down the road for ref sets but will remember the penalty or complexity it may cause. Thank you again for your help.

[DzinEye]

21 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

See if this helps you at all...

Good find on that hidden wall Michael.  Helps if you have a clue as to what to look for.  That may offer a very helpful hint for me to solve similar problems when I find attic walls not building as expected.

[ricatic]

9 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

See if this helps you at all...

 

 

Mike

 

As a relatively new user of HD2021 but frequent visitor to Chieftalk, this video and the simply explained reason for the attic wall dilemna that has driven me crazy was so welcome. I have unknowingly made every error with editing attic walls and other walls I have added that you mentioned...all in attempts to get the exterior walls to "build through".

 

Thanks

 

Regards

Rick

 

 

[HumbleChief]

9 hours ago, DzinEye said:

Good find on that hidden wall Michael.  Helps if you have a clue as to what to look for.  That may offer a very helpful hint for me to solve similar problems when I find attic walls not building as expected.

Yes, Yes, Yes. Knowing where to look is the entire battle won or lost when chasing issues as these. I now know my attic wall problems that have popped up over and over again stem(ed) from my template plan walls, their location and definition. I should be able to track any misbehaviors or eliminate them completely with minor adjustments to the template plan. Nice...

[Kbird1]

14 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

Thanks so much for all the help. The plan I posted was directly from the simple model with auto everything turned on and I didn't place any attic walls manually but I think I might be closer to understanding the issue since the 'default' residential plan seems to solve things.

 

In this case I don't necessarily think it is "Pilot Error" Larry , personally I have noticed that the Auto Attic Wall Builder seems to be a lot more "aggressive" in producing Attic Walls in X11 and X12 than in Previous Versions, and not always removing them as it should , leaving "strays" lying around in the Attic, ( I hit Alt-Q, delete them all and then turn auto back on to "refresh" them)  and even though the wall is not marked Auto created, as Michael pointed out, I would not be surprised if it was built as you drew the house and changed it's shape , notching in for the porch area , then adding the railing wall etc etc . Being an attic wall with no room def it actually runs back to the window breaking that Gable wall, so I think the building was a different 'size" and shape to begin with leading to the Strays left behind up above.

 

14 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

I pasted the walls and railings in to the 'Profile Plan from X12 and the attic walls generated properly so I've most certainly set up something in the wall defs incorrectly.

 

I think this works as the Auto Attic Walls are "refreshed" in the new plan when you only copy over level 1  ( not edit Area all Floors ) as the Attic is rebuilt when you auto build the Roof again.

 

M.

[Alaskan_Son]

On 4/3/2020 at 9:18 AM, Kbird1 said:

In this case I don't necessarily think it is "Pilot Error" Larry , personally I have noticed that the Auto Attic Wall Builder seems to be a lot more "aggressive" in producing Attic Walls in X11 and X12 than in Previous Versions, and not always removing them as it should , leaving "strays" lying around in the Attic

 

I'd be curious to see if you could actually demonstrate this taking place or if its just your own supposition.  I'm not sure I've ever seen this happen unless the attic walls have been fiddled with. 

[HumbleChief]

1 minute ago, Kbird1 said:

 

In this case I don't necessarily think it is "Pilot Error" Larry , personally I have noticed that the Auto Attic Wall Builder seems to be a lot more "aggressive" in producing Attic Walls in X11 and X12 than in Previous Versions, and not always removing them as it should , leaving "strays" lying around in the Attic, ( I hit Alt-Q, delete them all and then turn auto back on to "refresh" them)  and even though the wall is not marked Auto created, as Michael pointed out, I would not be surprised if it was built as you drew the house and changed it's shape , notching in for the porch area , then adding the railing wall etc etc . Being an attic wall with no room def it actually runs back to the window breaking that Gable wall, so I think the building was a different 'size" and shape to begin with leading to the Strays left behind up above.

M.

Mick, I've concluded your analysis is EXACTLY what happened. I did not draw in that wall that Michael so deftly discovered and was causing the problem, it was as you describe, a "stray" left behind up above as I changed the shape of the template plan. Really glad you diagnosed the actual problem and hope it will help others.

[HumbleChief]

2 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I'd be curious of you could actually demonstrate this taking place or if its just your own supposition.  I'm not sure I've ever seen this happen unless the attic walls have been fiddled with. 

I can try Michael as I saw it happen in one of the plans. I was also able to reproduce the behavior in one of those plans. My template's been changed but i'll see if I can reproduce the behavior. Thanks again for your help.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I'd be curious of you could actually demonstrate this taking place or if its just your own supposition.  I'm not sure I've ever seen this happen unless the attic walls have been fiddled with. 

 

As you know I open multiple Plans every week , and see these "left behind" attic walls all the time , this did not seem to happen in X9 and 10 so much that I remember but , so my reasoning was that they had changed the 'programming" in X11 for attic walls , I find I use Alt-Q all the time now to "Clean up" which wasn't needed in earlier versions.

 

M.

[Alaskan_Son]

1 minute ago, Kbird1 said:

 

As you know I open multiple Plans every week , and see these "left behind" attic walls all the time , this did not seem to happen in X9 and 10 so much that I remember but , so my reasoning was that they had changed the 'programming" in X11 for attic walls , I find I use Alt-0Q all the time now to "Clean up" which was needed in earlier versions.

 

M. 

 

Could it be possible that you're privy to a lot more plans in X11 and X12 than you were before?  And might it be possible that you understand attic walls better now than you did prior to X11? 

 

I just don't think it's very productive issuing a diagnosis that you don't have any direct evidence for.  It's a lot easier for people to swallow when they think it's Chief's fault so they assume it is and learn nothing from their mistakes.  No, until I see some evidence, I'm not buying it.  I don't have these stray attic walls in my plans. 

[HumbleChief]

I was able to reproduce the phenomenon as Mick described.

 

Here's the plan file too.

 

 

 

 

ATTIC_WALLS_5.plan

[HumbleChief]

12 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Could it be possible that you're privy to a lot more plans in X11 and X12 than you were before?  And might it be possible that you understand attic walls better now than you did prior to X11? 

 

I just don't think it's very productive issuing a diagnosis that you don't have any direct evidence for.  It's a lot easier for people to swallow when they think it's Chief's fault so they assume it is and learn nothing from their mistakes.  No, until I see some evidence, I'm not buying it.  I don't have these stray attic walls in my plans. 

Understand your skepticism and agree blaming Chief for user error is not productive. Let me know please if the demo video and plan shed some light?

 

Thanks again very much.

[Alaskan_Son]

Sorry, you didn't reproduce anything.  All you've proved is that you futzed with attic walls in your template plan too.

[HumbleChief]

2 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Sorry, you didn't reproduce anything.  All you've proved is that you futzed with attic walls in your template plan too.

Not true, did not do any 'futzing' at all, those attic walls were there after simply moving the exterior walls with nothing done to the attic walls themselves, but understand if you don't buy it. Still grateful for the help. What if you tried to reproduce the effect with that plan file? Thanks.

[Alaskan_Son]

 

[Alaskan_Son]

There are a lot of really good reasons Chief doesn't recommend using the Save As method guys.  Not saying it can't be an effective method but it can result in all sorts of problems. 

[Alaskan_Son]

Also, just a side note...

 

Get in the habit of actually reading the dialog boxes that pop-up.  If you try to edit an automatically generated attic wall in any way you should get a pop-up that says...

 

"This operation modifies one or more automatically generated walls. The walls(s) will be retained and will not regenerate automatically. Would you like to continue with the operation?" 

 

All you have to do is open the dialog box and click Okay and you'll get the message.  If you click Yes, then you've just created yourself a supposedly errant, "stray" attic wall. 

[DzinEye]

17 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

There are a lot of really good reasons Chief doesn't recommend using the Save As method guys.  Not saying it can't be an effective method but it can result in all sorts of problems. 

Sorry... do you mind quickly elaborating or directing to specific language regarding this comment?  Not sure if I'm doing what you're referring to or not, but would like to know... 

[HumbleChief]

27 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Helps very much, thanks again.

[Alaskan_Son]

5 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Sorry... do you mind quickly elaborating or directing to specific language regarding this comment?

 

If I could "quickly" elaborate or direct you to a specific language I would.  I don't have anything off the top though.  I just know I've read and heard many times from Chief that they don't recommend the conventional "Save As Method" many of us are accustomed to where we just keep reusing the same file and just deleting what we don't need.  It quickly becomes bloated and error filled, carrying problems forward from one plan and version to the next.

 

I guess the better answer I could give is this...

 

Where in the documentation is the Save As Method recommended?  Answer:  It's not. 

[DzinEye]

1 minute ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

If I could "quickly" elaborate or direct you to a specific language I would.  I don't have anything off the top though.  I just know Ive read and heard many times from Chief that they don't recommend the conventional "Save As Method" many of us are accustomed to where we just keep reusing the same plan and just deleting what we don't need.  It quickly becomes bloated and error filled, carrying problems forward from one plan and version to the next.

Ahh.. okay, you mean basically continually using an old plan file as the template for a new one.  Got it.  
I do Save As throughout an individual project to start a modified version of the plan or save a Planning review set, and move to CD's for permit.

[HumbleChief]

Good advice and I wonder where a 'template' plan might cross the line in to errors and bloat? Not sure I could live without my templates...

[Archnot-Boltz]

On 4/2/2020 at 12:46 PM, HumbleChief said:

I seem to be missing something basic in Chief and have never really understood attic wall creation. In almost every model I build there's some attic wall that does not generate. I've attached a super simple plan and expected the attic wall to be generated in the blank area shown. I can drag walls and get them done manually but seem to missing a simple Chief setting or something else I need to learn. I seem to run in to the issue on a fairly constant basis so any help greatly appreciated.

Here's a pic of the missing wall and the simple plan attached as well.

Thank you

 

 

ATTIC_WALLS_1.plan

I've been using Chief since 1998 and also have the same issue! 

[Alaskan_Son]

3 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

Good advice and I wonder where a 'template' plan might cross the line in to errors and bloat?

 

When you've used that plan to actually design a home.  In X12 Chief gave us a Save As Template plan to help find a middle ground.  To date though, my advice to all trainees and consultees is to keep a little notepad handy.  When you find some setting that you have to keep changing with every plan, or some layer that you keep needing to recreate, or some Plan View that you know you'll need all the time, write it down.  Then, at the end of the day, the end of the week, or the end of the month, take that list and make those modifications to your template plan.  This way it can be done in a clean and orderly manner and it gives you a little time to make sure you really want to make those changes.  With the straight up Save As Method, all these changes to your template plan are made willy nilly and happen with every whim.  The result is often a confounding mess that just keeps building on itself.

 

That's my free advice on this matter for the day.  Gotta get back to work now. 

 

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Could it be possible that you're privy to a lot more plans in X11 and X12 than you were before?  And might it be possible that you understand attic walls better now than you did prior to X11? 

 

I just don't think it's very productive issuing a diagnosis that you don't have any direct evidence for.  It's a lot easier for people to swallow when they think it's Chief's fault so they assume it is and learn nothing from their mistakes.  No, until I see some evidence, I'm not buying it.  I don't have these stray attic walls in my plans. 

 

It seems I accidentally kicked something off here ......but yes my "evidence" is I see in not only in my own plans occasionally especially when I do Manual roof plane manipulation but also in plans from the Forum and Elsewhere and is not anecdotal ie I didn't read about it on a blog or website somewhere. 

 

I personally do not use the Save As Method , I found it had too many "quirks" , though I do have my own Templates , but those don't have Attic Walls already obviously.

 

M