Clarification Needed on Cabinet Front Layout

[kwhitt]

We have a custom cabinet shop and I was hoping to use CA generated cabinet elevations for shop use on smaller jobs instead of AutoCAD.

The first attachment (image left side) shows our standard full-overlay frameless box construction w/ 3/4" sides, top, bottom, and back.  We use a 4-1/2" high toekick which creates a 30" high carcass for our typical 34-1/2" high base cabinet.  The image on the right side (same first attachment) shows the reveals we use for our door/drawer fronts on our typical base cabinet.  The bottom door is always flush with the cabinet box and there is an 1/8" reveal between the door and the drawer.  Above the drawer there is another 1/8" reveal under the countertop.  This describes our typical vertical layout (to use CA terms).  As for horizontal layout, all door and drawer fronts are held back 1/16" from the cabinet box at the sides, so when adjacent cabinets are placed, we maintain this 1/8" reveal everywhere.

I am having a difficult time achieving this layout in CA using the custom layout tools under the Front/Sides/Back panel.  As far as I can figure, they are combining the door/drawer fronts with the specs of the cabinet box and adding an automatic overlay of the fronts beyond the stretchers and cabinet box parts while subtracting the full-overlay reveal (1/16" in this case).  When selecting the fronts (whether door or drawer) you are actually selecting the box opening.  Correct?  If so, it seems backwards to me.

How is it possible for me to meet the specifications shown in the first attachment?  It would be nice to set the overall width and height of the door/drawer fronts independently of the cabinet box and have the box parts adjust automatically.  This is how it is done in any other cabinet design software I have used.  I have no idea how much the fronts are overlaying these openings.  Can someone clarify that Chief is asking for input on the box opening and if so, how is Chief calculating the door/drawer overhangs?  I have sent cabinet elevations to CAD layout to measure the reveals and am having mixed results.  Thanks!

[Joe_Carrick]

Chief is not the best tool to use for part sizing.  

I would suggest KCD Software for your use.  It's pretty inexpensive on a monthly or yearly basis.

[MarkMc]

3 hours ago, kwhitt said:

How is it possible for me to meet the specifications shown in the first attachment?  

Chief doesn't do variable overlay which is what you are asking for-it only does reveals. So sanely working with it you can have either accurate reveals OR accurate boxes. The only way to get both is hacking the cabinet per the attached. I no longer bother with this and settle for accurate boxes which is what is needed for production. In the truly rare case (like once every ten years) that a client gets antsy about reveals I'll then show that for them with inaccurate boxes-not with the attached hack. Want both- pay for it, use something different, see someone else....

cabinet reveal and box match.plan

[Kbird1]

Basically CA doesn't care about the Door or Drawer Size , the Cabinet Module in CA is based around the (Parametric) Cabinet Boxes instead and it then auto applies the reveal you set to the Doors and Drawers sides and in between those items, when they are shown in Elevations etc, unfortunately as Mark pointed out that Reveal is the same on all sides ie under the countertop and between items gaps will be 1/16th ( or other set measurement ) same as the sides not 1/8th. The Reveal is also applied to the bottom of the Door.

 

So basically you would just set the "Boxes" up like your LH Drawing and the "Shop" will know the real sizes.......CA does not do Parts lists or Cutlists etc for Cabinets, though many would like that, they are forced to use other software for  "Shop Drawings".

 

CA does do things "differently" in many regards to other Programs eg ACAD , that is one thing you will need to "let go"  or you will feel like you are constantly battling CA.

 

M.

[kwhitt]

12 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

Chief is not the best tool to use for part sizing.  

I would suggest KCD Software for your use.  It's pretty inexpensive on a monthly or yearly basis.

Joe - thanks for the reply.  I checked out the KCD software.  Looks like they thought of everything.  Not too sure about their touchscreen design function as it looks cumbersome. Our company already has ProKitchen and 20/20 - both of which I can't stand to use.  I was hoping I could create all my visualizations in CA with very little importing from other apps.

[kwhitt]

10 hours ago, MarkMc said:

Chief doesn't do variable overlay which is what you are asking for-it only does reveals. So sanely working with it you can have either accurate reveals OR accurate boxes. The only way to get both is hacking the cabinet per the attached. I no longer bother with this and settle for accurate boxes which is what is needed for production. In the truly rare case (like once every ten years) that a client gets antsy about reveals I'll then show that for them with inaccurate boxes-not with the attached hack. Want both- pay for it, use something different, see someone else....

cabinet reveal and box match.plan

Mark - thank you very much for the file.  It helped me to understand what Chief is doing with all the components in layout.  Still seems strange to me that is was programmed this way, but at least I now know how to get the door/drawer fronts the correct size.  

 

[kwhitt]

9 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Basically CA doesn't care about the Door or Drawer Size , the Cabinet Module in CA is based around the (Parametric) Cabinet Boxes instead and it then auto applies the reveal you set to the Doors and Drawers sides and in between those items, when they are shown in Elevations etc, unfortunately as Mark pointed out that Reveal is the same on all sides ie under the countertop and between items gaps will be 1/16th ( or other set measurement ) same as the sides not 1/8th. The Reveal is also applied to the bottom of the Door.

 

So basically you would just set the "Boxes" up like your LH Drawing and the "Shop" will know the real sizes.......CA does not do Parts lists or Cutlists etc for Cabinets, though many would like that, they are forced to use other software for  "Shop Drawings".

 

CA does do things "differently" in many regards to other Programs eg ACAD , that is one thing you will need to "let go"  or you will feel like you are constantly battling CA.

 

M.

Mick - I appreciate your input.  All I am really looking for is an accurate elevation for smaller jobs.  I usually list the door/drawer sizes for the shop as I'm a stickler for having all door/drawer fronts in alignment.  I have noticed there are quite a few things I need to "let go" of as pertains to CA.  You aren't the first to tell me that.

[MarkMc]

2 hours ago, kwhitt said:

All I am really looking for is an accurate elevation for smaller jobs.  I usually list the door/drawer sizes for the shop as I'm a stickler for having all door/drawer fronts in alignment.  I have noticed there are quite a few things I need to "let go" of as pertains to CA. 

Well there's nothing to let go of in 2020 now is there Last I knew 2020 did not produce editable cad elevations as dwg?

I consider myself a wiener about stuff. I asked for variable reveals for several years when I first started and that was back before the work around I showed was possible.I used to make the faces and reveals look correct using traditional overlay and then a separate file to get the correct openings, eventually I decided that was scratching stuff that didn't itch. Bottom line is every custom maker and every contractor I've worked with has been thrilled with the level of drawings I give them thanks to CA.

 

With every maker I've ever worked with, (and when I built them)-everything revolves around opening sizes and each has thier own standard reveals. They all want opening sizes from me for anything not standard, if I want different reveals or things to align I specify that. It is then the responsibility of the maker to do it correctly. IF I send in all sizes for everything then it is my responsibility if something doesn't add up...hopefully I get a call.

 

I thought of a simpler way for you to get both (just in case you're using the Material list for your door and drawer sizes?) You can set your doors & drawers to finished heights using the front configuration and use "blank areas" for reveals. Then use side panel inset to place separations in the back so the openings are correct.

The problem is that the front will NOT affect the back so if you change something in one you have to remember to change it in the other.

[Kbird1]

5 hours ago, kwhitt said:

how to get the door/drawer fronts the correct size

 

If the Door and Drawer sizes are the over-riding need then you can set the gaps and drawer and Door sizes on the Front instead and they seem to report to the ML correctly. The down side is that the Stretchers at the top and below the Drawer are not shown or drawn in CA . The Bottom can be easily added back by using 2 Shelves and setting the Bottom one to 0" so it looks like the cabinet bottom. 

 

If as Mark suggested you used the Back of the cabinet you could add those Stretchers back in , and once setup in your Template it might not be too back to deal with.

 

M.

cabinet reveal and box match_MHD.plan

[kwhitt]

Mark and Mick - thanks for the workarounds.  I think these are both clever ways to go about this.  I understand Mick's solution after seeing the .plan file, but I don't follow you Mark when you say, "Then use side panel inset to place separations in the back so the openings are correct".  Are you saying configure the back of the cabinet to get my stretchers and partitions spaced as I want, thereby, omitting the back completely?  Sorry, I just don't follow.  Kevin

[kwhitt]

Mark - and you're right, I couldn't get away from 20/20 quick enough although other designers around here use it.  I ended up using FormZ modeling everything from scratch and exporting elevations to AutoCAD for layout.  I was hoping CA would be a more automated solution.  Looks like it can be with some workarounds.

[MarkMc]

34 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

Are you saying configure the back of the cabinet to get my stretchers and partitions spaced as I want, thereby, omitting the back completely?

Yes. Open the cabinets in the plan I posted and look at the backs. They have a custom door symbol used as a side panel inset. The door symbol has the depth locked to go to the front of the cabinet, and the origin changed so that it does. They are what shows as the horizontal stretchers. 

The only difference I suggested today was to completely eliminate stretchers from the front. 

If you need more info I'll be at a computer tonight. 

[MarkMc]

6 hours ago, kwhitt said:

"Then use side panel inset to place separations in the back so the openings are correct".  Are you saying configure the back of the cabinet to get my stretchers and partitions spaced as I want, thereby, omitting the back completely?  Sorry, I just don't follow.  Kevin

Attached fresh plan -cabinets on left have separations made using doors inserted into the back only. Symbol included on floor.

Cabinets on the right are done using Mick's idea of shelves with custom symbols for shelves. Took some trial and error to figure out the Z origin for each.

The down side to using the back is when you resize the depth of the cabinet you need new symbols AND auto labels are off (I don't use those anyway though but it does mess up one label macro I had) Using shelves for the separations will resize depth fine downside is new symbols if you need to alter the top drawer box height.

examples of each all the way to the right and shelf symbols included.

Suggest opening each cabinet DBX and examining fronts and back. Then open each symbol (open symbol not open object) and examine those.

This sort of hack is something I use for lots of things- extended stiles, side extended back, extra control of toe spaces, alternate finish interior...lots. Worth learning.I don't really consider this a work around, rather a great tool Chief gave us that is fun to abuse :)

no front separations.plan

[kwhitt]

Mark - thanks again for the explanation and the .plan file.  It has been very helpful.  I spent some time studying the plan this morning.  So, in order to use this method, I need to add your door symbol to my library (or create my own) when building new cabinets?  I'll need a custom symbol for each depth I want to represent?

 

Where did you create the door symbol?  Within, CA or SketchUp?  I ask as it has three different materials assigned, so I'm guessing it was built out of faces in SketchUp?  Or can this be done in CA?  My apologies for all the questions, but I'd really like to start using this method.

 

Another thing I can't seem to figure out - why doesn't CA have a top drawer front with reduced height rails?  I've looked through the core catalogs and other vendors and I can't seem to find one.  This isn't so needed with Shaker style fronts, but quite necessary with raised panel.  We usually reduce the rails on smaller drawers to 1.5" in lieu of 2.25" to give more room for hardware.

[MarkMc]

3 hours ago, kwhitt said:

Where did you create the door symbol?  Within, CA or SketchUp?  I

I create all my symbols in Chief, only use SU to break up found SU symbols. To make that out of faces first make a psolid, size to suit, convert to solid, then to faces. Faces allows you to have different grain directions.

I make ALL my own door symbols so have no idea if any have shorter horizontal rails though I'd guess that there may be some. There should be a post somewhere I made in Tips? or Symbols on how I make door symbols that includes some parts to get started.

Basically I start with a wall cabinet, 3/4" deep, framed construction. Set rails and stiles to desired width, back and sides as opening, side panel inset for the panel.

[kwhitt]

Mark - thanks again.  You've given me plenty to work on this weekend!  I really appreciate all the help...  Kevin

[dshall]

Mark is definitely the cabinet guru.

 

[kwhitt]

On 9/12/2019 at 7:48 AM, MarkMc said:

I create all my symbols in Chief, only use SU to break up found SU symbols. To make that out of faces first make a psolid, size to suit, convert to solid, then to faces. Faces allows you to have different grain directions.

I make ALL my own door symbols so have no idea if any have shorter horizontal rails though I'd guess that there may be some. There should be a post somewhere I made in Tips? or Symbols on how I make door symbols that includes some parts to get started.

Basically I start with a wall cabinet, 3/4" deep, framed construction. Set rails and stiles to desired width, back and sides as opening, side panel inset for the panel.

Clever.  I think I'm getting the hang of it.  Thanks again!  Kevin