model intersection of rake molding and gutter

[Lighthouse]

I'm creating some technical literature and need to model some molding intersections.  It may be possible in CA, but I don't think so (unless maybe with symbol overlap subtraction).  A friend tried it for me in sketchup but also couldn't quite get it to work.  I need a perfect model, with no faking, that I can get photorealistic renders from.  The job is to model a variety of molding intersections.  The first one I need is kind of a lost traditional detail- it's the intersection of a wood gutter to a wood rake molding.  Many Victorian houses had this detail, but as the rake rotted away, or the gutter was replaced with aluminum, the detail was lost.  (btw, I know there are other ways to detail this intersection, but I'm not interested in them in this case).  Please see the attached photos- one shows a real world condition, and the other shows a shop mock-up.  I will provide the exact profile for the gutter and the rake, I just need help in accurately creating the intersection.  Note I have tried shadow board, molding polylines, etc but none make a perfect mitre.  If you think you can do this, let's discuss compensation.

[robdyck]

Interestingly enough, I get opposite results from a 3d molding vs a shadow board and neither miters correctly.

[Chopsaw]

Hi Dave,  If it can be done in real life it should be possible with solids.  A long way from just selecting a profile in a DBX but it should be possible.  Chief has a bit more work to do with intersecting miters for sure.

[MarkMc]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I will provide the exact profile for the gutter and the rake, I just need help in accurately creating the intersection.

The two images are not done the same IRL the first one has no gutter on the protico so easier to do, the second one does but doesn't show the return.

IRL or on the computer for the second one (wood picture) the mitre is done on the ground, the assembly is then tilted to the pitch. It gets coped to the regular gutter on the roof return and fussed with at the peak. Attached plan has an idea-used the easier profile from (and didn't mess with other details for it)wood gutter 2.plan

http://jpmoriarty.com/wood_molding_catalog/002_gutter/wood-gutters-t&h.pdf

A full gutter profile can be done as well but would be harder to actually build.

Plan attached is down and dirty.  Adjusting the symbol to something useful so the block lines up and such would still be needed. The angle for a 3D view has to be done per roof pitch. In the long run if this had to be redone for different pitches then doing Chops idea of boolean operations with solids would be the way to go.

detail has png of 2 details from the supplier in question.

wood gutter 2.plan

[Lighthouse]

hmmm, nice pic.  John Moriarty is actually my partner on this, that's his wood mock up in the photo.  I've created a new product called Duragutter that is a heavy duty aluminum version of a traditional wood gutter, which is designed to miter into John's wood rakes.  Shoot, the plan is in X11 and I've got X10.   How did you make the gutter?  I do need to be able to show at different pitches

 

[MarkMc]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

 How did you make the gutter?  I do need to be able to show at different pitches

It's exactly what I'd be doing IRL. Those will only mitre correctly on the same plane. If the horizontal is on a normal plane and the angle is on another plane the heights will never match at the corner-just simple geometry. So the idea is to make the joint on a plane and rotate the entire assembly.

 

Place molding profile for the gutter; rotate by  the pitch in degrees so that  when that section is done it will align again with the straight horizontal gutter. Add to library.

Made an "L" with that profile. Convert to a symbol, while converting rotate the symbol to the pitch. Horizontal gutter is standard profile-it will not miter to the symbol but can be cheated for 3D-cleaned up in CAD if need be. Miter at the peak also has issues and sometimes can be cheated for 3D.

 

To get things to mitre and/or to join at the peak use the same technique but with psolids.

Convert the molding profiles to solid of whatever depth. Use plain flat blocks set at angle to mitre the ends with psolid subtraction . With a little luck you can nudge them together and not have to join the solids-will help if you have to do several. Save the parts in a plan for further generations.

I see that his rakes don't join to a horizontal, have you tried that?

 

[glennw]

If that wooden gutter returns down the side and is fixed level in cross section, It won't mitre in the corner.

Assuming the gutter around the corner needs to lie flat, you will need a small horizontal piece of gutter before the raking gutter turns the corner.

There was a thread on this a while back where I posted the technique.

I think you woud need 3 molding polylines to do that.

1 3D MP for the gutter (down the roof and around the corner), 1 for the sloping frieze and one for the flat frieze.

Do you have a pic of the shop mock-up from around the corner?

Post the profile for the gutter and the frieze.

 

[Lighthouse]

Thanks for the replies.  Alaskan Son gave me great pointers and it came out pretty good.   A couple points for anyone interested:

 

1- despite the naysayers, the direct mitering of gutters into rakes was standard practice on many homes before 1950 or so.  Special rake profiles were developed to match standared wood gutter profiles.   However, these are not to be confused with the flat bottom wood gutters that exist today.  The old gutters had much more ogee on them.  see woodgutters.net.  So to be clear, you do not have to put a little flat return before going up the rake if you use the proper profiles and know the miter angles (sort of a lost art, but it's a beautiful detail)

2) I created the gutter and rake profiles in cad on an elevation view.  I made them into polyline solids, gave them some length, then converted to solids.  I rotated them in elevation views and used my xyz coordinates to move them into place.  Now, the tricky part.  I wanted them to miter at the corner, but because they are different profiles (and hollow) the solid subtraction tool would not work.  I made another solid which was a 45 degree slicing blade that I used solid subtraction on to cut each of the moldings individually, then I moved them until the aligned.  Obviously and absurd amount of work, but kind of satisfying

 

[Alaskan_Son]

For technical drawings i typically use the Technical Drawing or Vector View rendering modes...Usually Vector View.  They do a substantially better job at highlighting structural details, joints, connections, etc.  

 

I also typically work in a Vector View as well because you can much more easily see all the various faces, edges, intersections, etc.  

[tommy1]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:02 PM, Alaskan_Son said:

For technical drawings i typically use the Technical Drawing or Vector View rendering modes...Usually Vector View.  They do a substantially better job at highlighting structural details, joints, connections, etc.  

 

I also typically work in a Vector View as well because you can much more easily see all the various faces, edges, intersections, etc.  

Wow, I don't hear that very much but I do the same. It shows detail better.