Is There A Way To Move Items To The Cabinet Schedule?

[MarkMc]

Like wood hoods, corbels, legs, valances, custom symbols? Changing the layer doesn't do it. Trying once again to get a decent cabinet list out of CA with numbered plan.

[Joe_Carrick]

Mark,  In order for them to be in the Cabinet Schedule the Symbol needs to be defined as a Cabinet.  You can do that by exporting the symbol to 3DS and then importing it back as a Cabinet.

[MarkMc]

In the long run that means an awful lot of in and out but works like a charm. (Wonder how that goes over with newbie KD's.)Thanks.

[Joe_Carrick]

It used to be (back in v9.5 and maybe even in v10.0) that you had to export to 3DS any symbol and then import - regardless of what kind of symbol you wanted.  I got CA to change that so we could define symbols directly without the export/import step - but we still have that problem for Cabinets.

[OldCKD]

IMHO there are quite a few items that are miscategorized and cause a bit of extra work to deal with. 

I've run into the same thing you have, Mark, and usually end up numbering manually.

 

Somewhere on here a while back I asked if there was a way to group-select items to simply change their layer - but no can do.  It's another pet peeve of mine, maybe they'll improve it some day.

[MarkMc]

In this case I understand the categories.  For a builder this is Millwork (except hoods), but if in the kitchen it's ours- so there is a conflict. Kitchen specialists are a convenient pick up market, not the target demographic, so Millwork it is (except hoods).

 

I've been numbering in PDF with BlueBeam Revu for years going back to 2020. Autonumbering "stamps" are really fast once understood.

 X6 with some help I got on this forum has made getting a list and numbers perhaps feasible.  If I can get the lists at the same time, in the same file (even though completely edited) it may be worth it-jury is still out.

At the moment my old methods are twice as fast- generate list (in 2020, on line, or manually), export, edit, print to pdf, import list and number printed Chief layout in Bluebeam...but hope springs eternal, will see where it goes.

 

I can still group select cabinets (among other things) and change the layer?? What can't have you run into that doesn't?

Some things in the cab DBX are capricious in a group select and a PIA.

 

"...maybe they'll improve it some day"

Maybe-thanks to folks like Joe who somehow persist with suggestions.

For this job the the workarounds made revisions a brutal nightmare-inset, integrated end panels, half dozen fluted clipped corners, stiles extended down and/or out, sides extended back, few funny angles, custom symbols, some stacked molding to a cathedral that bumps at valance-kind of job that almost makes 2020 look good. I decided to change my birthplace to Missouri

[glennw]

Try this.

Select the object.

Shift select it again.

Convert it to an Architectural Block( on the Edit toolbar).

Open it's dbx.

On the General tab, there is a section titled Schedule and Material List, check Schedule and Material List and then check Cabinet. 

Generate a Cabinet Schedule.

Open the schedule and down the bottom of the General tab under Objects To Include, check Other.

The object will now display in the Cabinet Schedule.

 

It sounds a bit convoluted, but only takes a couple of seconds, and avoids the export/import.

[lbuttery]

It sounds a bit convoluted

 

 

here's hoping that CA "fixes" this someday

 

Lew

[glennw]

Fix what Lew?

Is something broken?

[lbuttery]

Glenn:

 

I consider "convoluted" to be "broken" ...

 

Lew

[MarkMc]

Thanks Glenn, much faster, that's so good it isn't even a work around.

[lbuttery]

that's so good it isn't even a work around

 

Mark:

 

seriously ???

 

I spent 30+ years as a systems analyst/programmer for major corps

around the DC beltway and I would be ASHAMED to tell my client

 

"all you have to do is follow these steps to perform that task"

 

this is a prime example of where the KISS principle should be applied

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

 

Lew

[MarkMc]

Yeah Lew, only slightly harder than opening a dbx.

[glennw]

Mark,

 

I am disappointed that you don't think it is a workaround.  If it wasn't a workaround, Chief would have a command for it!

Lew is right.

Chief should be aware of every possible thing that we want to do (even the obscure ones) and we should have it now, in this version.

We shouldn't have to follow any steps - it should just happen.

 

And, oh yes, we want the program to stay simple and easy to use - no choices or options - Chief should just know what we want to do. 

 

Lew, tell us all again how you were a programmer for 30+ years as that seems to make a big difference.

 

Did you even try out the method I described? If so, did you find it overly complicated or confusing?

Is it something that you have ever needed or wanted to do?

[lbuttery]

Glenn:

 

it's called being "user-friendly"

 

http://www.sapdesignguild.org/goodies/simplification/Introduction.htm

 

Lew, tell us all again how you were a programmer for 30+ years as that seems to make a big difference

 

this doesn't even deserve a reply

 

 

 

Chief should be aware of every possible thing that we want to do (even the obscure ones) and we should have it now, in this version.

We shouldn't have to follow any steps - it should just happen.

 

Wow !!! - you finally understand

 

Did you even try out the method I described?

 

No need, just expressing an opinion when I see an overly convoluted process

that could be programmed to be simpler

 

if it was so "clear" why did Mark have to start this thread ???

 

as I have said before in these "debates"

I don't understand why you didn't stay with the first version of Chief

that you started with

 

it must have been "perfect" ...

 

Lew

[MarkMc]

Don't wish to add fuel- this is mostly in case someone looks at this in the future- in particular a KD.

The arch block thing works like a charm and I'll likely try again in the future to generate a schedule and numbered layout in Chief but it will have to be on a much simpler layout than what I have now.

I am running into far too many issues to keep at it:

-some items numbers don't show in elevation- like a shelf behind moldings or a cabinet turned sideways on an island- workaround create seperate callout for elevation

-I already have to edit text for all labels to get them proper in the schedule

- already have to manually add ALL modifications to the component list for each cabinet- cumbersome

-have a two tone kitchen and can't generate a seperate schedule- was considering just living- creating two plan files would allow me to solve it in elevation but not in plan

-the straw was I have all (stacked) moldings done with molding lines- the arch block trick did not work at all for that and if it did it still wouldn't give me the stacked parts

so-

I'll generate the schedule manually and number after printing the layout using Bluebeam. Thanks for the help- will try again on a simpler plan.

[Joe_Carrick]

Mark,

 

The fact that you can add an Arch Block to the Schedule is helpful, but in the long run the only way to get everything you want is by having Custom Cabinets (stored in the User Library) with all the components you want.  Using Chief's generic (aka native) cabinets is always going to result in a lot of editing to get the model and schedule complete and comprehensive.

 

Kitchen Design at the level of detail that you need is more than most Chief Users.  If you take each of your projects and systematically add those cabinets to your Library they can be used for other projects and will carry all the details with them.  This is true for all sorts of objects, not just cabinets.  CA gives us a starting point with their Libraries but building a comprehensive User Library and Templates is the only way I know of to eliminate (or at least minimize) the tedious work to get the consistent results.

 

For cabinets you start with the basics - Base, Wall, Tall, Partition, Soffit - editing the details for Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings, etc. and set up a Library Folder Structure with those items.  Then over time you can add and refine - anything you might use repetitively gets added to the Library with a cataloging system that you can relate to.

 

My system looks something like this:

 

My Cabinets

...Inset

......Design Style 1 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base

..........Wall

..........Tall

..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 2 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base

..........Wall

..........Tall

..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 3 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base

..........Wall

..........Tall

..........Partition

..........Soffit

...Lip Inset

......Design Style 1 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base

..........Wall

..........Tall

..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 2 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 3 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition

..........Soffit

...1/2" Overlay

......Design Style 1 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base

..........Wall

..........Tall

..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 2 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition

..........Soffit

......Design Style 3 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)

..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition

..........Soffit

...1-1/4" Overlay

......Design Style 1 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)
..........Base

..........Wall
..........Tall

..........Partition
..........Soffit

......Design Style 2 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)
..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition
..........Soffit

......Design Style 3 (Doors, Drawers, Hardware, Moldings)
..........Base
..........Wall

..........Tall
..........Partition

..........Soffit

 

Whenever I create a new configuration - such as a cabinet with appliance(s) I add that to the Library.  Then any time I want that or a similar configuration I can just grab it from the Library and place it in the plan.  I'm refining this approach all the time.  One of the things that seems to work best is having the Basic Units in each Design Style - no (D) designations so I can place one of each in the Plan and use those to set the Plan Defaults.  All the special configurations are set to use the Defaults so I only need one of each special configurations - but I need one for each appliance Mfr/Model. 

 

This is what I call a Sharp Saw.

[MarkMc]

Appreciate the input Joe, I follow your posts, in particular about this, and use what I can from it. I've been adding cabinets to my Library since I started with X3. I actually went that way in the beginning.  In my case it helps some but I've come to rely more on templates in combination with some cabinets in the library. To fully solve things I'd need such a huge library it would be unworkable.

 

 

Templates work a bit better for me. They help a when the client inevitably changes brand or cabinet configuration mid stream. Even for those I need quite a few in the long run. 11 to cover the most commonly used cabinet configurations- twice that to accommodate ceiling heights and throw in a couple for raised ranches and splits. Currently have less than half that but the total is more jobs than I do in a year.

 

What makes using the library convoluted for me:

-Labels, four brands-completely different nomenclatures 

-Modifications. Need mods for practically every base cabinet and half the walls I do- each brand has differing nomenclature with 80-120 options per brand. That leaves me always editing the Component list.

Mix in

- two toe heights,3 top drawer heights by brand, over two dozen drawer cabinets (9 different 4 drawer stack configurations alone) likely.

-different configuration -2 Inset (just rail heights not the 6 edges), 3 frameless, 3 full overlay reveals (plus mods), 2 traditional (lipped but no call for it).

 

That's before I start mucking around. So I have some cabinets in the library, add to it sometimes, or fish them out of an old plan, and keep molding stacks in a separate plan to copy/paste from.

If I could manage to get nomenclature, mods and sizes into a schedule so I could export it to use for ordering, even with some editing, in a decent amount of time it would be worth it. If I could get numbering to work then more would be "live" an improvement. Which is why I've spent so much time at this. I really wanted it to work.  I was thinking of it as a learning experience but t's not happening.

 

For now, I might as well generate the order and import the nomenclature into the drawings. Either way it won't be "live" and  I can number plan Bluebeam in a fraction of the time it'll take to finish reordering numbers for cabinets in the schedule.

 

But the model looks good enough, and the layout pages will be fine (except for those angled flutes and have yet to fix toe kick on the clipped corners).

 

Kitchen Design at the level of detail that you need is more than most Chief Users

Yeah, I've always been a problem child, Still I know enough KD's like me, who need a bit more. We end up using CAD, AutoKitchen, Chief, 2020 in combo with Envisioneer, Cabinetvision, Pencils, likely some others...or a combo of whatever works for the task at hand. Ain't a perfect world. Chief does most but it's like driving from here into NYC-cruise along for 75 miles the last 10 can be brutal..

 

I've finally come to accept that Chief is for builders (duh) and ktichens, as a market, are incidental. It almost solve the (kitchen) problems but it never really will. They have too much do fix for the mainstay client. So for now I choose to accept the workarounds while kissing ano sets and this forum daily.

.

[MarkMc]

Forgot-I've started to add back in the "d" in many cases, helps when the client changes things.

[mkennedy2000]

I may have missed this being mentioned, but I find that when I modify a cabinet I lose my component edits.

I look at the size of the Schrock catalog alone, and it's apparent to me that I will just reactivate my 20-20 license or buy ProKitchen before I manually build all those cabinets, with all those options.

The arch block works OK for adding corbels and so on. I have added a 1" wall and base filler to my library, labeled as 3" so they will appear correctly in the schedule, that saves some time.

I'm trying to find a way to default control the placement of callouts in elevation view - I like my upper callouts a few inches above and my base and tall cabinets a few inches below.

The corner cabinets seem to be temperamental, sometimes I can control the display, sometimes not.

I did my first kitchen in ProKitchen, it took about an hour to enter all the cabinets, based on my CA schematic from the con docs. It would have been quicker, but I was learning the SW as I went.

At the end of that time I had a complete kitchen with full schedules (including price), it can run very quick decent quality renders (better than CAs camera views, not as good as a ray trace, but as fast as a camera view)

[MarkMc]

I gave up trying to get a schedule out of CA. Faster to generate it elsewhere; 2020, on-line order, spreadsheet, and paste into PDF of layout. I use Bluebeam so numbering cabs is a snap.

Half the time I don't even do labels in Chief -certainly not mods or accessories and too many variations in nomenclature.

CA gives me good docs and one way or another I can configure "most" cabinets...which is what I wanted.

Looked into PK a year or so ago but opted for a second CA license. Maybe next time, likely sooner than renewing 2020 from what I've seen. Will be checking software at KBIS.

[mkennedy2000]

Mark, what really iced 20-20 for me was the fact that I moved the office and misplaced the key - so they deny my existnece and will charge me very nearly the price of a new license - and I just don't use the software enough to justify the cost - and I'm not sure it's any better than PK, which I found to be very fast, easy to use and accurate. As well as having much more personable people answering the phones - my rep took calls on his personal cell, at home, on the weekend, when I was doing my demo!

Can you describe your process? I've thought it would be nice to be able to display nomenclature as well as callouts, perhaps both in one display, perhaps one in elevation, the other in plan, perhaps toggle back and forth without losing my schedule or disconnecting my schedule from the plan. 

Maybe this should be a new thread?

[MarkMc]

It is far more likely that I purchase PK than re-up 2020 (simply dread the thought) Most of my work is better suited to Chief.

Well thanks to the help on this thread I did find a way to create a schedule within Chief -I've attached a zip file with a plan that uses what I found on this thread I also included a pdf of a recent job showing what I'm describing below being done in Bluebeam.

For the Chief plan the key was altering component list and entering into a new coiumn that doesn't go away with editing. This was a relatively simple kitchen for me, much simpler than the one in the layout. In the long run the process is too cumbersome- I may revisit it once they make some changes. I really would like to be able to stay in one program for safety sake.

 

What I'm doing now...

I've set up annosets to allow- dimensioning to just wall cabs, just base, just room- then to another to show them all, some with labels, others with and without labels, some others.

 

I typically produce 2 (sometimes a 3rd just for ordering) cabinet plan views in layout- one for the client in plain English (no labels)

-another for install and checking sometimes a third for just ordering.

 

If the brand for the job has something close to civilized nomenclature and it is a simple job I (sometimes) make needed adjustments to labels in Chief for at least the main cabinet and finished sides. Accessories and modifications get messy so I don't include them in labels in chief.

 

I have gone back and forth trying to do all labels and call-outs in Chief so that I can check things better OR doing them all after the fact.

 

Currently I'm keeping all instructions and specific callouts in Chief but labels are done after the fact. (annosets helps a lot with this).

 

Lables, schedule and cabinet numbering: I print the plain English plan and a no label plan- then get out a pencil to fill in the labels. This is only for the purpose of checking over the order.

Once the order is done- on line, drag and drop in 2020, or in a spreadsheet -which one simply depends  on what the brand has available and complexity

Then I get the order into a spreadsheet, (at this point changes create mayhem) then I copy the relevant columns from the order and paste that into Bluebeam. Then I go on to number cabinets in both plan and elevation sheets then check that.

 

To number cabinets to relate to the schedule I use a layout plan page with no labels, and elevations with no labels.

Then in Bluebeam PDF Revu. I use one of it's "sequence" tools that I have customized and saved in my toolbox- click and it stamps with user defined prefix and number , each click advances the number in sequence as you go-fast and easy once you play with it a little. Can be reset or started over with a new prefix (for instance an job with multiple finishes which will have to go on seperate orders (i.e Cherry=C1,C2,C3...white= W1,W2<...) I'd first used this with 2020 before CA and had hoped to do away with it.

Lately I have not even been adding labels to all jobs but if I do then....

Final labels are added in Bluebeam- I open two instances of the same document, place on separate monitors, copy nomenclature from the schedule, and past as a label on the the appropriate layout page. Once added, all those labels can be group selected to reformat to fit.

 

It's a convoluted system BUT  faster than trying to do it in Chief. The brands I carry have serious diversity in nomenclature and I do a lot of mods and accessories which makes doing it in Chief too cumbersome. As you pointed out trying to create full catalog for a single line is daunting, 4 different companies comprising twice as many lines.

 

 

[mkennedy2000]

Mark, thanks for taking time. I looked at the atachments and will consider your process in some depth - it does seem convolute but.....

4 out of 5 vendors I use don't have catalogs in PK but they small catalogs and I can deal with them in CA AND they are willing to build the order from my CA plan and schedule so....

It's just the one vendor that gives me fits.

I think with study  I may find some good direction in what you've posted, although once I accept I'm in a second software, I may just decide that PK, with the complete library, owner acceptance, pricing, order form, is the way to go.

If I achieve an epiphany, I'll try to share it here, in the meantime I really appreciate your time and pointers.

[mkennedy2000]

So, a small epiphany - I may try generating cabinet plans (and elevations?) displaying nomenclature, sending to CAD view and THEN generating my schedule. I can insert the CAD as a block behind the active plan or elevation (on a locked layer, displayed in a grey lineweight?) - this way I get both nomenclature and callouts. FWIW, it may actually be a useful tool for keeping track of changes. Since I'll have the CAD saved as a block, I can refresh it with changes be sending to view and reblocking. I can also just send the blocks to layout if I want to.