Zoom Level In Layout

[GMTinc]

Has anyone worked out a decent zoom level for viewing layout sheets at actual size, for the purpose of checking how things look. I suppose it would depend on scale, sheet size and maybe even monitor resolution. Anyway just asking formdecent solutions. I'm sure everyone has experienced that frustration

[CJSpud]

I usually zoom in close to inspect each view in LO.  I use screens that are about 23" so I am not able to get much size with a complete 24 x 36 sheet, which is the size I most commonly use.  If you had a larger screen, it might reduce the zooming you have to do to proof your plans.  But some of those cost big bucks and I just haven't gone there yet myself.

[tommy1]

I use the plan scale macro for this. I put it in a plan or cad detail view first and then send it to the layout at the scale I want. When looking at the layout, you can zoom in and out and the scale macro will change (just like in plan view) and you can zoom to the correct scale in layout view. Keep in mind that when printed, I will probably look slightly different depending on the screen resolution of the monitor you're using but it will be very close. This is one reason I was complaining so much when X6 first came out because if doing this as I mentioned, the scale macro wouldn't change like it is supposed to when zooming in and out in the layout. This was confirmed a bug and is now fixed in the latest update. 

[RodCole]

Kind of low tech, but what I do if I really want to inspect things before printing a Layout page is to set the scale of the views and then zoom in on a corner of the page to a level that is comfortable to see the level of detail that I want then use the arrow keys to move around the page.

 

Nothing special, but I catch things this way that get away from me otherwise.

 

Another way to to this if you find the arrow scrolling too tedious is to use the Aerial View window and drag a window around an area that gets you the view you want.  Then right click in the Aerial View window to move around the page.  Both ways work for what I need, but the Aerial View method is a bit faster and less tedious.

[rlackore]

One of the issues I have with CA is its automatic scaling of certain objects depending on your zoom level, eg dimensions, labels, and line styles. You can "turn off" dimension and label auto-scaling in the Preferences>Appearance>Minimum Display Size - set both values to zero. Unfortunately, I haven't discovered a way to prevent the line styles from auto-scaling.

[ebdesign]

Try disabling  "Line Wgts".

[rlackore]

Try disabling  "Line Wgts".

 

Brilliant, though for me it's counter-intuitive. In order to prevent the line styles from scaling (in terms of length of dashes, etc), I have to check "Show Line Weights". I've always had this unchecked. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[rlackore]

Brilliant, though for me it's counter-intuitive. In order to prevent the line styles from scaling (in terms of length of dashes, etc), I have to check "Show Line Weights". I've always had this unchecked. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

I think CA has created a confusing issue, using the display of line WEIGHT to also control the display of relative line style SCALE. Combine this with Use Layout Line Scale when sending to layout, and it's a complete mess.

[ebdesign]

I make a pdf & set the zoom level in Adobe Acrobat (or the reader) at 100% & then pan around the pdf to see how it will print. Would be nice if Chief layout had the same thing. The "Show Line wgts" tool is primarily to view relative thicknesses of lines compared to other lines. IMO. Take a look at Preferences/CAD/Line Properties/Endcap Printed Length. Always select "Use Layout Line Scaling" for views sent to layout to have your line styles print exactly the same regardless of scale used. & of course, you can create your own line styles if the OOB lines don't have what you want. The attached pdf illustrates how "Use Layout Line Scaling" works. Notice how the polyline prints exactly the same regardless of scale, including at the corners.

Untitled 2-Layout.pdf

[rlackore]

Jim,

 

Nice pdf.

 

Coming from an AutoCAD background, it's always been annoying to me that CA auto-scales dimensions, labels, and line styles according to the screen zoom level. If my Drawing Sheet Setup is set to 1/4:12, then I want my line styles to display at this print scale (relative to all the other geometry), regardless of the screen's zoom level. Here is an illustration of why I'm frustrated with CA's paradigm:

 

I set my Drawing Sheet Setup to 1/4:12. I create a new line style to show a sediment fence. In plan, I enable Show Line Weights, which displays my new line style RELATIVE to the other line styles:

 

 

When I sent to layout at 1/4:12 with Use Layout Line Scaling I get this:

 

 

Why don't they display the same? Sheet Setup is 1/4:12, layout box is 1/4:12. I only get the "correct" output if I DON'T enable Layout Line Scaling, but then I lose the benefits of Layout Line Scaling. Further, in layout, enabling/disabling Show Line Weights DOESN'T affect the auto-scaling of line styles.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something, or not thinking about things correctly. Maybe someone can set me straight.

 

[Doug_Park]

Select the Print Preview mode if you want to see things scaled and drawn like they will print. The printer will of course be at a higher DPI than your screen so anything that we do will be an approximation.

[ebdesign]

That's a good question, Rob. Looks like you have a pretty clear idea of how it works.

I don't think "Show Line wgts" is meant to be much more than a quick visual comparison between lines. I pretty much only have it enabled for elevation/section layout views to quickly see what lines need to be cleaned up w/ "Edit Layout". Once I've gotten comfortable w/ the printed output of my line wgts & styles, I don't pay much attention to how they display on screen.(Although anything out of the ordinary will usually "jump" out at me.) I look over the pdfs pretty thoroughly.

Having "Show Line wgts" enabled is also a huge resource hog. It really slows down view generation.

[rlackore]

Select the Print Preview mode if you want to see things scaled and drawn like they will print. The printer will of course be at a higher DPI than your screen so anything that we do will be an approximation.

 

Here is my plan file, set up at 1/4:12, Print Preview enabled:

 

 

Here is my layout file, sent at 1/4:12, Layout Line Scaling enabled, Print Preview enabled:

 

 

I would expect the line style scaling to be the same.

[Doug_Park]

So you are saying that in Drawing Sheet Setup the scale is 1/4" = 1ft in the first view with print preview on and in the second view you sent it to layout at 1/4" = 1ft and print preview is on and your layout sheet Drawing Sheet Setup is 1:1.

 

1) Assuming that the scale is correct in your plan view then you don't have print preview turned on in the first screen shot.

2) Assuming that you have print preview turned on in the first screen shot your drawing sheet scale is not 1/4" = 1ft. It is possibly set to 1/4ft = 1ft or something equally nonsensical in that direction.

 

I can't think of any other causes. It should work and does work for me.

[rlackore]

So you are saying that in Drawing Sheet Setup the scale is 1/4" = 1ft in the first view with print preview on and in the second view you sent it to layout at 1/4" = 1ft and print preview is on and your layout sheet Drawing Sheet Setup is 1:1.

 

1) Assuming that the scale is correct in your plan view then you don't have print preview turned on in the first screen shot.

2) Assuming that you have print preview turned on in the first screen shot your drawing sheet scale is not 1/4" = 1ft. It is possibly set to 1/4ft = 1ft or something equally nonsensical in that direction.

 

I can't think of any other causes. It should work and does work for me.

 

 

Doug,

 

I sincerely apologize for being stupid. You are correct. Sorry for wasting your time.

[GMTinc]

Thank you all, and glad to see so many approaches to this problem.  I realize, given all the possible variables for each user, it has to be a difficult situation.  I am told (but have never verified) that some CAD programs have tried to address this by providing a "view" that purports to be actual print size.  Again, it seems to me there are too many variables to do that very precisely.  I have experimented with view levels (obtained by buttons and scrolling) that give me a pretty goo approximation; however, line wt./dimensions, as others have indicated, are still a problem.   Even looking at .pdf's is no guarantee one will not be surprised by the actual document, and, looking at .pdf's is unwieldy when initially establishing details etc.  I think the problems with .pdf have the same source as with CA.

 

The only possible solution, in my feeble mind, would be if we could set zoom levels at a specific percentage, it might be easier to find that sweet spot that works for each user.  (Now someone tell me we can already do that)  Line wt. and Dimensions scaling would still be an issue I am guessing.

 

I am unfamiliar with some of the solutions presented here and intend to experiment with them. There are so many options within CA, it is difficult to learn the implications of all as well as staying abreast, but that I think is inherent with all CAD programs.  I wish documentation was better as that would help when looking for solutions when, in fact, they are available.

[Doug_Park]

With respect to my prior post. The line weight scaling can also come into play. The main thing is to make sure you are always using the same scale everywhere.

 

As far as a view for showing things on screen as they would print. You have the following issues.

 

1) The real screen DPI and what the computer tells Chief is the screen DPI are almost always different. Historically on Windows the screen DPI has been normally assumed to be 96. However, diplays at close to 96 DPI frequently vary between something less than 96 to 120 or 130 DPI. New displays now run upwards of 300 DPI. I'm typing this on a Dell M3800 which Windows defaulted to a 200% scaling or 192 DPI, but the display is actually closer to 240 DPI. You can attempt to get the scaling more accurate in the control panel.

 

2) The DPI of your printer will almost certainly be different than your display DPI. This means that at times a line that looks reasonably heavy on screen could be nearly invisible when you print.

 

3) For performance reasons we don't use anti-aliasing to make the on screen display of lines look smoother. However, this is normally always done when we print.

 

4) Things just look different when you are looking at display which radiates light rather than looking at a printed sheet which reflects light. The type of display LCD, LED, CRT, projected, etc. will have an effect on how things look. Nothing beats looking at an actual printout to fully appreciate how things will look. Of course the paper used can also have an effect on how things look.

 

While we could in theory provide a setting to zoom to print resolution, it is unlikely going to look the same on most displays as it will when you print.

 

What I recommend is to create a line weight sample and then print it on a reasonably high resolution 8 1/2 x 11 printer and use that as a guide for choosing line weights. Typically CAD standards use line weights that vary between about 0.18 mm to 1.00 mm. Which in the out of box settings for Chief translate to 18 to 100 as the line weight. While you can go smaller, 18 seems like a reasonably small minimum.

 

Chief treats a line weight of 0 as special in that it will draw as fine as possible on the device you printing to. In other words it will always be 1 pixel wide, not to be confused with a line weight of 1, which will be 0.01 mm wide or as near to that as possible when you print.

[Bill_Emery]

I like to print to PDF for reviewing my layout sheets.  With the 50" monitor I can view an Arch D (24"x36") full size when set to 81% zoom.  I can fold a printed sheet and hold it to the screen to see line weights and text in a direct comparison to the image on the screen.

 

Although the monitor is only 88 DPI having the ability to view an Arch D sheet full size on the screen has made reviewing a set nearly as reliable as having a printed set.

[Nicinus]

 

3) For performance reasons we don't use anti-aliasing to make the on screen display of lines look smoother. However, this is normally always done when we print.

 

 

Is this something that CA is considering for X7? Antialising in 2D plan views are now supported in Autocad, Revit and Archicad and given the speed of today's CPU/GPUs I think it should be an option. After all it is supported in 3D views and makes a dramatic difference on all angled lines. Text also looks much cleaner.

[Doug_Park]

We could put anti aliasing in for 2D views but it is very slow on Windows.

 

A better option is to go with a higher dpi display.

[Nicinus]

The problem though is that I have a 30" now, and with 2560x1600 my dpi is about 100. A 4K display would increase this to roughly 155dpi, and to get to the point where we at least pass 200dpi a resolution of at least 5,000x3,000 would be needed. I believe an iPad or Mac Pro is around 260dpi and iPhones even higher. Most magazines are printed at 300dpi but it is typically said that prints above 266dpi have no visible pixels.

 

I don't know how Chief is programmed or what graphics tech is used, but it seems as if antialiasing is the solution for the foreseeable future. Most graphics software today has it as an option that can be switched off if you have a weak or old display card. Take a look at these screen shots from Illustrator, one with AA active and the other without. The difference is substantial in a crowded scene with lots of details.

 

[Nicinus]

But then again, you never know:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFHhGflSgBA&feature=youtu.be

[DRAWZILLA]

4K already obsolete---wow, it hardly got started