Structural Sizing (Beams, Joists, etc.)

[country]

Building Architects -  Your degree has failed you if you waste time answering questions like the OP. You should be out practicing engineering where your license is of value, not here on CA.Building Science s/b your primary subject matter and how CA applies as one of your tools. 

 

OP, drafters knowledge base, capacity, and scope of work if VERY limited and NO Way includes FEM, not even remotely close, IF you know what you are doing!

Terry. What, may I ask, has this to do with the OPs question? After all of the help you have received from this forum, from people you seem to think are limited in education and obsolete, I would think you could be a bit more courteous. I appreciate everyone that helps me out here, architects, engineers and many, many drafts people/designers. Knowledge is not limited to formal education.

[dshall]

Building Architects -  Your degree has failed you if you waste time answering questions like the OP. You should be out practicing engineering where your license is of value, not here on CA.Building Science s/b your primary subject matter and how CA applies as one of your tools. 

 

OP, drafters knowledge base, capacity, and scope of work if VERY limited and NO Way includes FEM, not even remotely close, IF you know what you are doing! 

 

 

Terry. What, may I ask, has this to do with the OPs question? After all of the help you have received from this forum, from people you seem to think are limited in education and obsolete, I would think you could be a bit more courteous. I appreciate everyone that helps me out here, architects, engineers and many, many drafts people/designers. Knowledge is not limited to formal education.

 

Mon Cherie,  what a nice post,  I too do not understand what Terry is saying.  

 

However,  upon Terry's suggestion,  I will not waste my time answering any questions he may have.

 

 

[DRAWZILLA]

Terry. What, may I ask, has this to do with the OPs question? After all of the help you have received from this forum, from people you seem to think are limited in education and obsolete, I would think you could be a bit more courteous. I appreciate everyone that helps me out here, architects, engineers and many, many drafts people/designers. Knowledge is not limited to formal education.

Yes, we all have our strengths and weakness's  but Terry has gone too far.

[parkwest]

I was wondering what Chief's sales dept would think of the comments that only a professional engineer is qualified to use CA, in responding to the OP, who is obviously new to this program.

[DRAWZILLA]

It seems most of his latest post are advertising for some thing or another

[Gawdzira]

And I thought my Facebook feed was venomous? I am going to go out and suck some saw dust for a few hours (along with smoke and ash from the Sobranes fire).

[Northriver]

OP, last time I am going to hijack your thread.

 

Terry, what is it that you actually do for a living. I went back thru some of your old posts and am quite confused.

It seems you worked for Boeing designing the 787, then Cessna and automotive design, now building design and just stated you have designed HVAC systems for the last 30 years.

I have a 4 year degree in Construction Management but that does not make me superior to any one else who lacks a degree from college. There are many people who are very successful in their field of choice who do not have college degrees.

As I mentioned earlier if you really want to commit to a field in the Construction industry you need to find a company who excels at what they do and learn from them. You cannot learn this industry by surfing the internet or learning how to use software programs related to the industry. Its spending many years being out where the rubber meets the road then working your way up to orchestrating the entire construction process. As former VP of Construction it was my job to manage people, assets, the future growth and direction of the company and not being concerned whether I completely understand what it takes to compute numbers to achieve lateral and vertical load paths. That is what I pay the engineer to do. Your excitement and dedication to the design and engineering aspects of planes, automobiles,HVAV systems and now buildings is great and does not go unnoticed and unappreciated, but with the understanding that this is a small part of the entire process of getting an entire project started and completed and that is where your level of expertise is limited.

 

I think it would be a great idea to continue this conversation by starting a new thread.

[Paramount]

Looks like I had a thorn up my arse the other day, I apologize! Everyone has bad days. Hopefully I can write what I intended to covey better this time and if you are considering a job in design hopefully some insight.

 

For one, it’s real disappoint seeing the value of engineers drop over the decades, and from what I understand the numbers of American seeking a degree. I been practicing it around the globe. The days of drafting ink on mylar, doing stress analysis by hand, back in my day far gone. Replaced by CAD/FEM. Corporate turning Engineers into CAD jockeys. I’m one now, do it all day. Despite all my experience I have not had a real Engineering job for three years now like many of my peers. American aero is gone downhill, others are taking it over due to bad management and roles, similar to what I see in building's. . 

 

About ten years ago 2D drawings went away in large corporate. Today even I worked on a 3D model that has stored camera views called MBD (Model Based Definition), and I develop 3D PDFs with integrated very accurate materials list to downstream users, very fast. MBD started around 5 years ago as just CAD, a design tool only. Today it has developed, includes the production and inspection planning all in a 3D model. The Designers are doing everyone’s job now. There is no paper at all. It takes some computer skills to do this, but far less people than before, jobs are gone! Some got laid off never returned. Non-degreed drafters have been eliminated. I think some of that has to do with legal liabilities to create a high normal standard practice. The other a marketing tool. Yes, I know some non-degreed designers that are better than degreed. The degrees are more applicable to the unique skills sets like load development, stress, chemistry, etc, we do not put on drawings… In corporate it is critical for designers to have basic knowledge of to communicate with stress engineers, integrate those requirements with others like lean production, inspection, maintenance, etc.

 

That brings me to the flip side of the argument. Most hiring managers believe that by time an Engineer explains it all to a drafter they could have done it themselves. I agree, that is why I am here. I’m not licensed, I missed that ship 30 years ago when I chose aero. Fortunately, this industry left an opening for me as it did many drafters. In others like aero/auto, forget it, no more jobs for even those with the skills from this industry to go to. Now, one may find ones like me sick of corporate or out of job looking to replace the building drafter and in some cases the engineer. Those like me can pick it up fast, the CAD, and already know the engineering well since as I said the principles are the same.

 

In addition to all that, many have taken the engineering to other countries where they can get it for half the American wage or brought it here. They advertise some of that is due to no American Degrees which is BS! I been a designer for a decade or so in the “global design-build” market, what a disaster!

 

Now, a lot is going 3D_FDM Fused Deposition Modeling/Printing. I have designs in full production. No longer a prototype tool.

 

Speaking of Boeing, they are today as I write this, developing an automated computer design process where the loads are developed and sent to FEM, sent to CAD that has been programmed to design, plan, do MLs, etc…..Add that process to FDM,  it will do it better, faster, with fewer peeps, once again companies with reap the big profits.

 

It’s just a matter of time before this happens to all industry. Yes, it's sad to see degrees out here some have said they are focused on pics/videos, since they make more money. I’ve only done one 3D CA model. I’ll probably do one set of prints then go to 3D PDFs no drawing’s in an effort to eliminate drafting, and many will follow, why wouldn't they it's proven to drastically reduce cost and produce better products. Yes, I do greatly appreciate the help. If anyone wants to design the next joint strike fighter, rocket race car, let me know  I’m pretty good with the building stuff too and would be glad to help. 

[Joe_Carrick]

Terry,

 

I agree that Engineers have a tough time with the advances that have been made with computers.  The same is true for draftsmen - it just doesn't take as many draftsmen today as it did years ago.  The big difference is "Design" and by that I mean the artistic and functional aspects, not what engineers refer to which is really analytical and computational analysis. 

 

There are many Chief users who are good at the "Design" aspects of both residential and commercial projects.  I personally spend almost as much time designing a home today as I would have 30-40 years ago.  It's a little less because Chief provides excellent 3D visualization, but even so the design time hasn't changed much because it ultimately requires my brain and experience.  The analysis and decision making process isn't something that computers are capable of yet.  Maybe someday they will be but so far it's pretty well accepted that computers do not yet have the ability to be "creative".

 

IAE, In addition to providing superb 3D visualization, Chief virtually automates the ConDocs to the point that I don't need any draftsmen.  What I'm most concerned about is that too many people think Chief in itself is a substitute for design.  We see everyday someone with a plan that is horrible and they want us to critique it so they can have a better design.  That's one way that Chief actually promotes a lot of junk being built.  In addition, there are a lot of builders and remodelers that are doing the same thing.

 

But don't get me wrong - it was happening before CAD.  Bad Building Design has existed for ages and the only thing now is that it's just easier for the laymen to do.

 

I guess I could rant on this for hours but I have work to do.  I prefer to spend my time doing good Architecture.

[Jay_on_Cape]

Errrrr..........WOW.

[Paramount]

"I personally spend almost as much time designing a home today as I would have 30-40 years ago.  It's a little less because Chief provides excellent 3D visualization, but even so the design time hasn't changed much because it ultimately requires my brain and experience.  The analysis and decision making process isn't something that computers are capable of yet.  Maybe someday they will be but so far it's pretty well accepted that computers do not yet have the ability to be "creative".

 

Joe, yes most industry software has the same "What You See Is What You Get" 3D/2D bleed that is now obsolete about a decade ago that eliminates paper processing and errors. What I'm saying computer auto-design is well underway in aero/auto, it started by eliminating the drawing and moving production and inspection to 3D integration with the design, and everything follows it. It makes perfect sense especially when you look at several different cost aspects. This is probably not the forum to be the messenger that gets shot, I'm trying to let you all know whats coming your way so you can get prepared. Theres little room for creativity I see little of it out here or plans on the internet, same with aero, auto, powersports. Most if not copying space layouts are bad building practices in the field.

 

Today, for example, aircraft clients are able to covey performance desires to companies that have a computer automated design process needing no one to drive it, and it can be creative. CA would be wise to look at this. I'm not on that development team but know of it. For detailed example, take a hot HVAC duct one would typically do a design cost trade study to determine the best material based on current cost, heat, flow, pressures, corrosion, etc... Given parameter inputs like connection points it chooses the best design and route based on the latest decades of empirical data. You may be shocked how often I hire into companies only to see the same trade study get a different answer and error by a different person that cost the company a ton. This one I work at now has so many places in its design process for human error. They are still using the 3D PDF on their way to eliminating it. The auto-design program could also be programmed to look at the latest innovations and see if they satisfy loads, and at what cost and life cycles. Most out here and in corporate do not stay abrupt of the latest technologies, innovations, and consider them. I try with bookmarks, but like you just said have jobs to get out and limited time.

 

It will start and has in controlled manufacturing, it can be done at the home building industry job site. Most of what is being built has been repetitive for centuries, the trades know it. Try something new or too creative as I am now, they and the whole infrastructure can't handle it. I spend too much time training and losing time and money. Happens in other industries too, they can only handle so much "creativity" even when it comes to optimizing space. 

 

Where other industry is stronger than CA is integration of FEM and CFD( Comutational Fluid Dynamics) like WUFI, easy MEP , that I don't see in CA but it cost over 3xs more. Charge more the savings in better for time spent designs would be well worth it. Designs would be better with the proper tools, and yes agree, trash in trash out levels depends on users. 

 

I appreciate your input, don't see it as rant. I think it's a real problem when designers are asking whether or how they should do stress analysis or how to satisfy loads and drawing requirements, can be a part of a design process they don't understand. Bigger than that a lack of chemistry/physics knowledge, mold, low IAQ, and how to properly mate materials. Please don't take that wrong anyone. There are ways out of the high cost of building materials, and land...A good forum for real estate investing strategies is Biggerpockets.com

 

Here is thread I started to discuss the MBD more if anyone is interested: https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=new_post&f=7

[Fairhaven_Homes]

We use https://www.steelbeamcalculator.com/ for steel beams. I think it's $50 a year. You get a clean calculation sheet for each beam on a PDF to attach to the plans for review. It's also passed on to the folks who design my floors and roof trusses. They do an additional check.

 

As far as wood structural members the folks who sell the components design and document the beams for me. We've done it this way for years. No guessing no "hope it works"

 

[DRAWZILLA]

We use https://www.steelbeamcalculator.com/ for steel beams. I think it's $50 a year. You get a clean calculation sheet for each beam on a PDF to attach to the plans for review. It's also passed on to the folks who design my floors and roof trusses. They do an additional check.

 

As far as wood structural members the folks who sell the components design and document the beams for me. We've done it this way for years. No guessing no "hope it works"

It would be nice if that worked around here, Cities want a stamp and calc's