VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 The problem is when you are working with projects that you can t afford for AI to make any changes. Can have GREAT looking things, if you are not working with exacting clients. I have played with AI in just upscaling...etc but letting it do much more than that is not acceptable with the work I am doing. This was upscaled and played with a few other things. Here are a few I played with, but they stared with good rendering and only relied on AI to enhance what was there. I dont think there is much point in anything of filling an otherwise nondescript box of a room with furniture that AI put in there. I dont know I would call that 'design'. @basketballman the above examples have HUGE differences and would not be something I could present to a client. Your window centers changed, Window style and lite count. Sliding glass door added where was a window. Header heights altered. Completely unusable if you ask me. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHCanada2 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 12 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said: In your last example, walls were missing; windows and doors were moved but .... it moved the windows so they are actually the same distance to the walls, where the original were not. so a possible improvement!! ..of course it could be the widows were off centre on purpose...chatGPT needs a list of things it changed, so one could evaluate if its suggestions are "better" maybe if you asked it . "Please list changes you made to walls and windows", it would actually tell you ...and the reason why..if you asked ...or maybe he needs to explicitly state, and please do not change window sizes or locations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Sorry....for reference, these are just normal renderings of same project. Fully modeled in chief (everything except plants and greenery) Rendered in TM .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 10 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said: Hmmm... What is the point of photo-realism if the details are all inaccurate? In your last example, walls were missing; windows and doors were moved, resized, and changed to different styles; light fixtures were moved, etc. Kinda scary if you ask me. I would be seriously worried about communicating ideas that were not realistic. " Since the project plans/design is in very early stages the design choices come first; plan ( exact window, door placement, flat versus sloped ceilings, etc. ) preciseness comes after that .. A much better way to design IMHO is to start with broad strokes then refine .." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 12 minutes ago, basketballman said: " Since the project plans/design is in very early stages the design choices come first; plan ( exact window, door placement, flat versus sloped ceilings, etc. ) preciseness comes after that .. A much better way to design IMHO is to start with broad strokes then refine .." Trying to understand the usefulness of anything you have shown as an example except maybe what colors they like. Specifically, the offest with the window is puzzling to me and the renderings will mislead the client as to how a queen/king may fit in the room. I am not sure what you use renderings for, but I use them for clients to understand the design (as best once can). With that said most of my renderings in the design stage look like the ones below and they serve to allow the client to understand everything in a EXACT manner. I think the key point of using 3D in design is precision and ability to represent things as they will be (or should be) if executed correctly. If you represent things in a less than accurate manner, then 3d is just a gimmick. Might as well hand draw on paper and round up and down all your dimensions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 22 minutes ago, SHCanada2 said: but .... it moved the windows so they are actually the same distance to the walls, where the original were not. so a possible improvement!! ..of course it could be the widows were off centre on purpose...chatGPT needs a list of things it changed, so one could evaluate if its suggestions are "better" maybe if you asked it . "Please list changes you made to walls and windows", it would actually tell you ...and the reason why..if you asked ...or maybe he needs to explicitly state, and please do not change window sizes or locations... " A.I. is mainly for idea generation and exploration which should come very early on in a project design. then plans are fine tuned for precise window door sizes, styles, locations etc. after that " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Ai does a pretty decent job when you start with something that already looked pretty decent. Especially if you take the time to mask the problem areas back out: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 9 minutes ago, VisualDandD said: Trying to understand the usefulness of anything you have shown as an example except maybe what colors they like. Specifically, the offest with the window is puzzling to me and the renderings will mislead the client as to how a queen/king may fit in the room. I am not sure what you use renderings for, but I use them for clients to understand the design (as best once can). With that said most of my renderings in the design stage look like the ones below and they serve to allow the client to understand everything in a EXACT manner. I think the key point of using 3D in design is precision and ability to represent things as they will be (or should be) if executed correctly. If you represent things in a less than accurate manner, then 3d is just a gimmick. Might as well hand draw on paper and round up and down all your dimensions. " More than just what colors clients like, but also the ability to quickly look at multiple design style choices such as mid century modern, traditional, transitional, coastal, farmhouse or hybrid combinations in photorealism with spot on very realistic natural and artificial lighting My workflow is to start with a basic chief plan-design, then explore with the client interior design choices, then fine tune window doors etc.as they affect the CAD plans/drawings. My clients are well aware that tweaking comes afterwards and it's not intended to be super exact and precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 1 hour ago, VisualDandD said: Sorry....for reference, these are just normal renderings of same project. Fully modeled in chief (everything except plants and greenery) Rendered in TM .. " A bit of a lean unless it's a modern day version of leaning tower of Pisa .. Not sensing too much accurate realism for client here .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 25 minutes ago, basketballman said: " A bit of a lean unless it's a modern day version of leaning tower of Pisa .. Not sensing too much accurate realism for client here .. Yea....nothing accurate at all about these at all. ....except maybe....everything. Guess we just do different types of work. Not sure if your work is more interior decorating based. But I have little in the way of use making pretty pictures out of empty square boxes. I am lucky enough to work with clients who have made marks for building things that are not just 'boilerplate' type designs. Pics of the 'not sensing too much accurate realism" ones are being built right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 48 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said: Ai does a pretty decent job when you start with something that already looked pretty decent. Especially if you take the time to mask the problem areas back out: Rene. That looks really nice. I has some similar results and the stylized result looked too 'cartoony' to me. But client liked it. I prefer more realistic looking. But looking through a lot of realtors market with, these stylized renders seem to be popular. As always nice work! Here is same render one with letting AI do it's thing. The builder actually liked the AI version but now what I preferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 39 minutes ago, VisualDandD said: Yea....nothing accurate at all about these at all. ....except maybe....everything. Guess we just do different types of work. Not sure if your work is more interior decorating based. But I have little in the way of use making pretty pictures out of empty square boxes. I am lucky enough to work with clients who have made marks for building things that are not just 'boilerplate' type designs. Pics of the 'not sensing too much accurate realism" ones are being built right now. Not sure how project being built has anything to do with renderings being realistic or not. Most people aren't doing builds like yours Yes, I do mostly interior renders now My clients love the A.I generated interior ideas and don't seem to consider them " boilerplate " at all This one features Ashley furniture, Mohawk wood flooring, and Benjamin Moore Oxford Gray wall paint color As I mentioned previously, when I am finished they can go and buy the very products I am showing them and be sure of the final design outcome .. Yeah, I guess we sure don't work the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 2 hours ago, basketballman said: " A bit of a lean unless it's a modern day version of leaning tower of Pisa .. Not sensing too much accurate realism for client here .. you're commenting on the actual model, its just that DnD is using a wide FOV and no parallelism in perspective(For which you could slap him on the wrist). here @VisualDandD BTW Im gonna buy you a tilt shift lens for those buildings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottkendall Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 52 minutes ago, VisualDandD said: Rene. That looks really nice. I has some similar results and the stylized result looked too 'cartoony' to me. But client liked it. I prefer more realistic looking. But looking through a lot of realtors market with, these stylized renders seem to be popular. As always nice work! Here is same render one with letting AI do it's thing. The builder actually liked the AI version but now what I preferred. You could likely get the results the AI got since you mentioned you use TM for your renderings, by using some of the filters or adjusting the lighting from say 5500k to 3500k and using a HDR back drop rather then a cloudless sky. I have learned that when it comes to renderings it depends on the audience for me something in the middle of the two renderings would be what I like. The main difference I see is the lighting level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 1 minute ago, Renerabbitt said: you're commenting on the actual model, its just that DnD is using a wide FOV and no parallelism in perspective(For which you could slap him on the wrist). here @VisualDandD Understood, but why show the client something leaning and distorted when I'm pretty sure T M has a make parallel button BTW thought your previous A'I. did not look cartoonish at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 2 minutes ago, scottkendall said: You could likely get the results the AI got since you mentioned you use TM for your renderings, by using some of the filters or adjusting the lighting from say 5500k to 3500k and using a HDR back drop rather then a cloudless sky. I have learned that when it comes to renderings it depends on the audience for me something in the middle of the two renderings would be what I like. The main difference I see is the lighting level. " And the time it takes to produce this level of photorealism and lighting quality DR 5 and T M take a lot longer than A.I." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 1 minute ago, basketballman said: Understood, but why show the client something leaning and distorted when I'm pretty sure T M has a make parallel button That was what my slapping the wrist comment was meant for though his rendering does match his photo, haha. Both of which a pro photographer would give him hell for . Quote BTW thought your previous A'I. did not look cartoonish at all the cartoonish comment did not come from me. I also did quite a bit of masking and replacement and filters after the Ai for things it messes up...and it always messes something up. Ai especially gets confused with tight parallel lines and a few other things that you start to recognize and prep for ahead of time. For instance, Ai washed out the inset taper on the window in the above rendering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottkendall Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 2 minutes ago, basketballman said: " And the time it takes to produce this level of photorealism and lighting quality DR 5 and T M take a lot longer than A.I." In the case of @VisualDandD his Twin-motion rendering and the AI rendering it would be a few control flips and simply moving a slider for the lighting. Sure A.I. is faster but only if it does not mess something up. Even when I have asked AI to write the prompt it messes stuff up on a simple birthday invitation let alone a house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 33 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said: you're commenting on the actual model, its just that DnD is using a wide FOV and no parallelism in perspective(For which you could slap him on the wrist). here @VisualDandD BTW Im gonna buy you a tilt shift lens for those buildings Yep....my fov had to be pretty large to fit in everything. TM has a parallelism tool which I did not use. I kinda liked the view. Albeit I am not a photographer and I am probably not playing by rules of proper composition at times With that said, your translation is quite faithful with such a large AI influence. Only a few areas that did not come out correct. Mask technique is a great way to approach. I know your PS skills are top notch. For me, I dont mess with that much. For reference, when I said 'cartoony' it was not an insult. I should have said stylized. Quite attractive, just not what I would describe as photo real. (the photo-real being an ever elusive moving target it seems at times ) Give me a hollar some day when you have time. Be great to catch up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 34 minutes ago, scottkendall said: In the case of @VisualDandD his Twin-motion rendering and the AI rendering it would be a few control flips and simply moving a slider for the lighting. Sure A.I. is faster but only if it does not mess something up. Even when I have asked AI to write the prompt it messes stuff up on a simple birthday invitation let alone a house. " Then you probably aren't using prompts correctly. The way I use A.I., which is obviously not being understood, is not to be the last word in accuracy but rather to explore design styles and brand name elements and get that right early on. The way I think good design should be done. I rarely use A.I. for exterior renders preferring DR 5 for those instead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 3 hours ago, basketballman said: The way I use A.I., which is obviously not being understood, is not to be the last word in accuracy but rather to explore design styles and brand name elements and get that right early on. I don't think your use is being misunderstood. Some of us just have a very different design philosophy. I for one think its profoundly problematic to start with a model that I purposely designed with certain elements and then have AI change them on me in ways that I may or may not realize and in ways that may or may not change the entire feel of the project later on down the road. Amongst other things I've seen in your posted example, I've seen that AI made the following changes: Changed room dimensions Changed ceiling heights Moved window and door locations Changed window and door sizes Changed window styles Changed ceilings from vaulted to flat Completely eliminated walls Inserted furniture where there isn't functional room for it Completely removed an exterior covered deck or patio I don't for a second believe that every one of those design elements is as fluid as your making them out to be. If they were, why start with a model at all? Why not look to Houzz or Pinterest for inspiration. How helpful is photo "realism" and lighting "quality" when the lighting is deceptive and the end result will look nothing like the photo? And how helpful is it going to be when the budget doesn't allow for the 10ft. ceiling or when you realize that the windows or walls can't actually move to where they're being shown. At the end of the day, the room looks crammed, the painting won't fit, 2 chairs need to be deleted, the bed doesn't fit or look right, and the covered patio roof cuts off all the light that your client thought they were going to get. No, I personally think the risks far outweigh the benefits. Your opening statement here was that you think you're done using Chief for renderings. I would argue that you're not actually rendering anything at all. You're changing it to something else entirely. The details matter, the types of changes we're talking about here aren't little things either. Early design decision get made, you head down a path, and all it takes is one of those early details to be wrong, and the whole plan can get blown out of the water. Maybe that works for you...or maybe it doesn't even. I think its entirely possible that you just haven't used your new approach enough to fully appreciate the potential for negative long term impacts on the project. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 By the way, why are most of your posts wrapped in quotes. Are you using AI to write those too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottkendall Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 7 hours ago, basketballman said: " Then you probably aren't using prompts correctly. The way I use A.I., which is obviously not being understood, is not to be the last word in accuracy but rather to explore design styles and brand name elements and get that right early on. The way I think good design should be done. I rarely use A.I. for exterior renders preferring DR 5 for those instead." No I fully understand you are using material prompts and stuff to create interiorly designed/decorated rooms. And it is saving you a lot of time so also money I get that. But one AI called stable diffusion AI you tell it I want to see David bowie as Obi-won and sometimes you will get 6 figures and an extra hand on the lightsaber. I am not a graphic designer so I tried to use AI to create a flyer for my sons birth day in fact I even asked ChatGPU how to write the prompt and used the prompt it gave me and it was still producing weird things. For example changing numbers in my RSVP number or the date of the party. "Create a fun and vibrant birthday flyer for Odin's 12th birthday party. The theme should be exciting and kid-friendly, with bold colors and playful elements. Include the following details: Date: April 19th, 2025 Time: 1:00 PM - 5:00 PM Location: Address was here RSVP: Phone number was here Make the text easy to read and eye-catching, and add some birthday-themed graphics like balloons, confetti, and a cake!" The AI changed the phone number, put the wrong date, time, Even changed the 12th birthday to 21st birthday. The only thing it got right was the birthday theme I had to take a few different ones and smash them together to make one coherent Flyer. Now did it same me time oh heck ya it did, and because it is not something I normally do it really helped me a lot and I am grateful. But AI has a long way to go before it really starts to get things right. If it works for your needs more power to you Truthfully the part of doing this work I like you are giving to the AI... AI is really really good with color enhancements but it still falls short IMO to be used in a professional work flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 14 hours ago, VisualDandD said: The builder actually liked the AI version but now what I preferred more ai for ya: The original shot was so blurry I couldnt even tell what was going on with the staircase so its no surprise it was screwing that up and a few other things. I find it easier to patch with Ai if the source resolution is high. Then also I just know what to look for before I start using Ai. This all takes photoshop skills though. tagging you dnd just cuz it was your pic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basketballman Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 10 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: By the way, why are most of your posts wrapped in quotes. Are you using AI to write those too? Lol! Wish I could write like that ..' " I quite often use quotes " I you are at all familiar with A.I. technology you should be able to easily pick out something not written by a human being . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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