Girder, Block Pier, & Brick Veneer Crawlspace Foundation Walls

[ClarkeThrasher]

Common practice in Tidewater VA (Hampton Roads, 757) for crawlspace foundations has been 8x16 CMU Piers approximately 6' on center supporting 6x6 Treated Girders with continuous Brick Veneer Skirt Wall that is flush with the exterior frame walls -- the floor joists cantilever the short distance from their girder bearing to rim joists to be flush with the veneer and support the exterior walls.  I guess in the parlance of CA these are Stem walls.  But after exhausting all the Online Help Foundation Videos I haven't been able to arrive at an automated method that will produce this type of foundation wall.  In the past, I have just built these in CA plan piece by piece, object by object but that is a huge hassle.  Anyone have any suggestions?  If so, thank you for your consideration!

 

Screenshot attached is view from most recent plan for an addition, code here will no longer allow solid 6x6 girder so this shows a triple built up 2x8s.

 

Your truly,

 

Clarke Thrasher

CA Premier X11

MacOS Catalina

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2015)

Processor  4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7

Memory  32 GB 1867 MHz DDR3

Graphics  AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4 GB

 

 

 

 

[rgardner]

4 hours ago, ClarkeThrasher said:

Common practice in Tidewater VA (Hampton Roads, 757) for crawlspace foundations has been 8x16 CMU Piers approximately 6' on center supporting 6x6 Treated Girders with continuous Brick Veneer Skirt Wall that is flush with the exterior frame walls -- the floor joists cantilever the short distance from their girder bearing to rim joists to be flush with the veneer and support the exterior walls.  I guess in the parlance of CA these are Stem walls.  But after exhausting all the Online Help Foundation Videos I haven't been able to arrive at an automated method that will produce this type of foundation wall.  In the past, I have just built these in CA plan piece by piece, object by object but that is a huge hassle.  Anyone have any suggestions?  If so, thank you for your consideration!

 

Screenshot attached is view from most recent plan for an addition, code here will no longer allow solid 6x6 girder so this shows a triple built up 2x8s.

 

Your truly,

 

Clarke Thrasher

CA Premier X11

MacOS Catalina

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2015)

Processor  4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7

Memory  32 GB 1867 MHz DDR3

Graphics  AMD Radeon R9 M395X 4 GB

 

 

 

 

Are the Piers on a continuos ribbon footing?

 

not at my computer but the thought of a foundation wall of your brick facade and a post to beam railing wall with the 16”x8” newel post set at 72” centers and materials set accordingly (can save the wall type in your library.) would possibly work for your needs.  In the PNW we do a lot of crawl space foundations with a 2x4 or 2x6 pony wall for supporting our joists on a ribbon footing.

[ClarkeThrasher]

Yes, for the sake of simplicity for concrete subs, the piers and brick skirt rest on a continuous 20" x 8" footing.

 

[GeneDavis]

Piece by piece, huh?  Are your block piers made of individual solids each the size of a modular block?  If so, do you really need that level of detail in construction documents?

 

Which of your elements, footings, brick wainscot, piers one way, piers rotated 90, do you model a piece at a time, instead of using Chief wall and foundation tools?

[ClarkeThrasher]

2 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

Piece by piece, huh?  Are your block piers made of individual solids each the size of a modular block?  If so, do you really need that level of detail in construction documents?

 

No, but sometimes it's fun to, even complete with mortar but I will merge parts together to make duplication faster. 

 

Which of your elements, footings, brick wainscot, piers one way, piers rotated 90, do you model a piece at a time, instead of using Chief wall and foundation tools? 

 

Auto tools: will use Foundation tool to place footing and apply brick skirt as a wall.  One at a time: girders, piers, extra pier footings for rotated piers and/or piers supporting girders away from skirt area.

 

[GeneDavis]

Thanks.  Always interesting to see the regional practices when it comes to foundations.

 

Two questions and a comment.  Where is finished grade in your scheme, relative to top of footing?

 

Is a rat slab poured and if not, what is done to stop moisture from coming out of ground and affecting floor frame structure?

 

And the comment:  seems unusual for 3-5/8" brick "veneer" to have no backing other than the periodic piers.

[ClarkeThrasher]

4 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

Thanks.  Always interesting to see the regional practices when it comes to foundations.

I'm sure!  We have it pretty easy here in Norfolk, VA -- no hills, no rock to blast away, mild winters.

Two questions and a comment.  Where is finished grade in your scheme, relative to top of footing?

Grade a minimum 4" above an 8" thick footing or bottom of footing must be 12" below grade

Is a rat slab poured and if not, what is done to stop moisture from coming out of ground and affecting floor frame structure?

"Rat slab" had to look that one up , funny it is just what it says it is -- no rat slab is required, I've crawled through many a crawl space in my time and have never seen one.  Insulation subs customarily will install a 6 mil poly vapor barrier on the crawlspace floor although I'm not sure whether that is a code requirement.

And the comment:  seems unusual for 3-5/8" brick "veneer" to have no backing other than the periodic piers.

Yep, unusual but true, thousands of homes are that way here.  I do have my mason install ladder wire reinforcement in the brick courses and tie into the block and fully grout the block.  

 

[mtldesigns]

I hope I was understanding your dilemma Clarke.  Could you build a wall type with the CMU/air space/brick, place the walls then on the interior side use a wall niche to delete the block?  

 

Anyways, I figured I'd help a ex 757-VA brother..  lived in Suffolk for many-many years.

test.plan

[GeneDavis]

Try creating wall types you'll need.  They are all foundation walls and have a footing.

 

Between piers, the wall is the single-wythe brick.  Offset the footing appropriately.

 

At pier type 1 (CMU parallel to wall) the wall has layers of brick, air, and CMU.  It's a pony wall, and it's upper makeup is brick only.  The break between upper and lower is where your beam bears on the CMU piers.

 

Pier type 2 wall is like 1 but for when the CMU stack is rotated and 90 to the wall.

 

i'm just spitballin' this into my phone out here in the dark next to the pool, but I think it might work.  Use CAD lines to define your pier ends, and that's where the wall breaks go.

 

 

[ClarkeThrasher]

Thanks mtldesigns and GeneDavis I think you both understand what I am needing and have probably solved my problem.  I’ll start experimenting in the morning.  Thanks again!

[Kbird1]

On 2/12/2020 at 7:03 PM, ClarkeThrasher said:

Thanks mtldesigns and GeneDavis I think you both understand what I am needing and have probably solved my problem.  I’ll start experimenting in the morning.  Thanks again!

 

With a new Wall definition and a few new Materials eg a Framing Conc. Block  you can pretty much automate this with a couple of tricks to make the single 6X6 top plate (only) then retain the framing and then change the top plate material to Treated Lumber and thickness to 6" on the foundation walls.  Then reset the Wall Framing default tot he standard 2 top-plate and one bottom plate at 1 1/2" for the rest of the house.  I have left the Cameras in the Plan file below , so check them out 1st........

 

 

     

 

PLAN FILE :  MHD_Brick Foundation Wall with CMU Piers.plan

 

Mick.

 

 

[GeneDavis]

He needs the top plate, actually sort of a mudsill, to be a tripled PT 2x6, and inset from framing line.  And only transverse to the joists.  There's none where joists are parallel to wall.

 

Here's a sloppy workup of what's going on.  I made the foundation wall as brick>airgap>block, all as main layer and it's a pony wall with brick>airgap>airgap, the top section inner airgap same 5-5/8" thickness as the block below.  Top of lower wall is set at a height appropriate for the tripled 2x6 floor beam to bear directly on the block.  The foundation wall has a zero mudsill.

 

The floor beam is manually done.  I am no framing wizard, or at least not at the level to know how to make it autoframe and be properly placed.

 

I did not diddle the block texture, nor did I do the framing as other than my default 12" I-joist.  I only did a pair of wall breaks to emulate a single pier at block length of 15-5/8, but you can get the idea by seeing the image of what to do.

[Kbird1]

7 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

He needs the top plate, actually sort of a mudsill, to be a tripled PT 2x6, and inset from framing line.  And only transverse to the joists.  There's none where joists are parallel to wall.

 

I guess that is about my plan ?  I didn't go the whole hog last night but it doesn't take long to finish it the way you describe.....his Details Pics and what he said don't match ie triple 2x6 vs 6x6 PT , but either is not difficult.  I added the updated plan and pics above for Others in the future.

 

The transverse walls just needed a new material to rotate the Studs 90°.  ( ie 8 x16 vs 16 x 8" )  and the top plate deleted.

 

Frame the Foundation Level 1st with the needed settings ie single 5 1/2" top plate and no bottom plate , then lock the Framing in the Foundation walls with the Retain Framing box on the Structure Tab, you can then set the Framing back to a double top plate and single bottom  2X material to frame the other Floor levels.

 

It's not totally automatic of course but you can then copy and paste the missing framing members and change the material to PT framing quite easily. 

 

Mick.

[ClarkeThrasher]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:31 PM, mtldesigns said:

I hope I was understanding your dilemma Clarke.  Could you build a wall type with the CMU/air space/brick, place the walls then on the interior side use a wall niche to delete the block?  

 

Anyways, I figured I'd help a ex 757-VA brother..  lived in Suffolk for many-many years.

test.plan

Thank you my 757 Bro!  OK, I opened up your plan and get what you did.  I have never known or used Wall Niche Specification before, but good to know for sure.  In your suggestion the niches are essentially subtractions of block from a block/brick wall to create piers by omission.  If the bond of the block can be changed to be a simple grid, the verisimilitude would be better but still a bit of custom work to accomplish if I may so petty as to critique. 

[ClarkeThrasher]

On 2/14/2020 at 12:30 AM, Kbird1 said:

 

With a new Wall definition and a few new Materials eg a Framing Conc. Block  you can pretty much automate this with a couple of tricks to make the single 6X6 top plate (only) then retain the framing and then change the top plate material to Treated Lumber and thickness to 6" on the foundation walls.  Then reset the Wall Framing default tot he standard 2 top-plate and one bottom plate at 1 1/2" for the rest of the house.  I have left the Cameras in the Plan file below , so check them out 1st........

 

 

     

 

PLAN FILE :  MHD_Brick Foundation Wall with CMU Piers.plan

 

Mick.

 

 

Thank you so much, Mick, It certainly seems like you the solved the problem but I'm totally clueless as to how?  One thing I noticed was that if I expand the foundation room you created or extend out one wall, the block don't come along for the ride.  Am I missing something, do I need to rebuild the floor framing or what?

[Kbird1]

9 hours ago, ClarkeThrasher said:

Thank you so much, Mick, It certainly seems like you the solved the problem but I'm totally clueless as to how?  One thing I noticed was that if I expand the foundation room you created or extend out one wall, the block don't come along for the ride.  Am I missing something, do I need to rebuild the floor framing or what?

 

Yes..... How to Pics 1st ...will add Text .... but typically you would NOT do this process till you knew the house was at it's final Design Size , so it didn't need to be repeated.

 

The Foundation Wall's Framing is Locked ( retained on Structure Tab ) so you don't lose the manual work and Materials' changes when you rebuild the Framing in the rest of the house.

 

Pic 1                    How to set the Build Framing DBX for the Foundation Level

 

Pic 2+3                Select ALL the foundation Walls  and Uncheck Retain Framing , framing should rebuild if you set Auto build per Pic 1

 

Pic 4                    Select ALL the foundation Walls  and RE-Check Retain Framing

 

Pic 5                    Delete any Pier  "extras"  you don't need, that the Auto build made.

 

Pic 6 + 7              Use Full camera to go under Floor Framing and change Top Plate's Material and Width ti 1 1/2 or 5 1/2" as needed

                             ( delete Top Plates on Walls if not needed )

 

Pic 8 ,9 ,10           Edit Top Plates in an Elevation Camera for length and numer as needed.

 

Pic 11                   1st Floor showing Foundation Framing Settings above still

 

Pic 12 + 13           Building Framing > Walls reset to Normal and rebuilt

 

Pic 14 +15            Floor Framing also rebuilt now

 

Pic 16                   Full Reframed "Extended Room"

 

 

 

Mick.

 

 

 

   

  

  

  

[Kbird1]

On 2/15/2020 at 12:00 PM, ClarkeThrasher said:

Am I missing something, do I need to rebuild the floor framing or what?

 

Did you get it to work Clarke ?

 

* did you re-read the post above once I finished the Text etc....

 

Mick

[BerthaLee]

Mick, 

 

I am new to this and I've been trying to understand how you got this wall. Are there any videos on how this works?

 

In one house plan, I need a normal 8"CMU wall (no brick veneer), a 4'CMU with brick veneer, and the rest a brick "curtain" with 8x16" block piers. All foundation walls have a 12x24 solid concrete foundation. I can pretty much get everything except the piers along the brick curtain.