What Is Potential Value To A Client Of Various Rendering Approaches; Etc.

[LiteMari]

Seeking your advice/thoughts on the value to a client of 3D renderings in understanding the design suggestions of an architect, asking for variations, and in decision making. I have recently purchased rural acreage with wonderful views to the west of cascade mountains in Oregon and will be having a (contemporary-modern) home designed over the next few years. I will most likely be purchasing Home Designer Pro to explore my ideas of floor plans etc. and use that along with screen captures of things that appeal on Houzz.com and etc. as a means of conveying my wishes and ideas to an architect. This thread is the opposite direction: What software and tools does an architect have to convey to a client what they have heard and how they are "translating" that into a design starting with SD and on through CD phases? I have built one prior home, and been involved with lots of remodels and have some familiarity with process; I'm also fairly computer literate and enjoy learning about and using a range of software. At one point in my life I was a serious amateur photographer so have a pretty good visual sense. 

 

I have spent hours learning from this forum and others, and have a beginning sense of some of the range of different rendering approach (3D; ray trace that Premier does; etc.) http://castleview3d.com/lifeshouldbe3d/2011/06/02/whats-the-difference-between-a-3d-render-and-a-raytrace/  It seems to me that while these outputs can be quite useful that there is a potential danger in assuming that just because something is "photo realistic" that it is actually accurate and true. For example, tt seems to take a lot of skill and knowledge to do a good daylighting "analysis" and to use it as the basis for making decisions. My tendency will be to use these things with a grain of salt and give more significant weight to the experience (and perhaps intuition) of the architect or designer-builder I end up hiring that they are confident that a particular aspect of the design "will work well.".

 

I have the potential for great western views, but being in the high desert there are significant challenges with having a lot of glazing to enjoy that but still be able to deal with the solar gain and potential glare from late afternoon to sunset time in summer. Overhangs and etc. to work with such is one thing to model with software.

 

Chief Architect Premier in the hands of a professional who understands its capabilities can be a great assist, and obviously most of you on this forum are at least moderately committed to it as your major tool of choice. But some of you have also used and perhaps continue to use SketchUp Pro and I am impressed with what is possible with this software. In particular Nick Sonder (http://www.nicksonder.com/projects/services.php) a Truckee CA architect makes a somewhat persuasive case for the advantages in clarity, consistency, cost savings, etc. of working always from the same 3D model for all other views and output that is done via SketchUp Pro. Please recall that I am looking at this from the client point of view, so my ? is what differences do you think a client might experience working with an experienced architect A who is quite competent with CA Premier versus architect B who works with SketchUp Pro? I know this is a completely hypothetical question but perhaps you have some insights.It does seem to me that the two softwares as design tools work in significantly different manners, and perhaps this gives some insight into who an architect is based on whether they are strongly committed to one or the other of these tools; versus the architect who is ambidextrous and loves both of them

 

I will be choosing an architect based on a wide range of interaction and criteria, but one area I have already explored with some is electronic communication (I do not live proximate to new home site) and will also want to see both "blueprints" of typical job, but also the electronic renderings that were given to client. Wherever possible I will then see live the actual home.

 

I like one comment made by someone on this forum, which was to model your own current home in CA and create a ray trace, and compare that to high quality live photo taken in the actual house to see the differences between the ray trace; a live photo; and actually being in the room. I will only be able to do this in a much more limited way in HD Pro, and will only do it for say my current office with eastern and southern windows and with the windows on the east having a 2nd floor balcony deck that provides significant shading to the office windows on that side.

 

I hope this is clear enough for you to make some input, and hope that it is a topic of interest to some of you. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience and helping to cut my learning curve. Of particular interest to me are your thoughts about the strengths and weaknessed of HA Premier in comparison to SketchUp Pro.

[Kbird1]

I'll leave the main question to others I have no experience with Sketchup , lots with HD Pro  and now Chief  but wanted to make Sure you knew that HD Pro was not capable of Ray tracing , that is a Chief Feature only. You'll also need to work with an Architect with the same version or newer of Chief, if newer though you wont be able to edit their Plan, just view it which may mean you need to upgrade once you find an Architect .  The Current HD Pro 2015 = Chief X6.

 

M.

[Alaskan_Son]

LiteMari,

 

The subject you bring up is rather involved and requires covering a broad range of topics to answer acurately.  I don't have a lot of time so I can only briefly touch base on a couple things...

 

Chief Architect and SketchUp are really not very similar at all and I honestly doubt you'll find many (if any) architects who actually use it for construction drawings.  In fact, Nick Sonder is the only one I personally even know of.  While Chief Architect is an awesome tool and in the hands of a good user will leave most other programs in the dust...it also is not as commonly used by architects as several other programs.  In short, I wouldn't really use SketchUp versus Chief Architect as much of a factor in deciding which architect to hire.  In my opinion it really wouldnt be a very good tool in deciding who to hire.  It may be worth considering as a tie breaker, but I would recommend that you put which software they use much further down your list.  Things like reputation, referals, rapport, quality of product, level of creativity, etc. are much more important factors.  It would be to me like picking a builder based on which brand of air compressor he used.

 

Similarly, with regard to ray traces and renderings, I would focus much less on the tools and techniques and just try to work with who you think will do the best job based on examples of their work, their ability to clearly communicate in such a way that YOU can understand it, etc.  Many times (depedning on the situation and the person) a simple black and white sketch can be a much better way to communicate an idea than a photo realistic rendering would be.  A good designer or architect should really know what works best for his/herself, their clients, and the specific project or design feature.  I might add that you will find VERY FEW people who can turn out anywhere near the quality of renderings you'll find on the website you attached, and I would venture to say that some of the people who CAN turn out renderings of that quality may be terrible designers. The abillity to do good renderings and to design a home do not necessarily go hand in hand.  I could easily see a person passing up the better architect by placing too high a weight on their renderings and overlooking some more important strengths.

 

In short, a good architect or designer needs to know their strenghts and weaknesses, which tools work best for them, and how best to communicate each unique detail and with each individual client.  The best choice may end up being an architect who uses AutoCAD and draws his/her 3D details by hand. 

[lbuttery]

HA Premier ?

 

did you mean HD PRO ?  or Chief Premier ?

 

HD PRO sells for $495 and Sketchup Pro sells for $590

 

Chief Premier sells for $2395

 

so hugh difference in capabilities

 

download the free Sketchup and the free demo's for HD PRO and Chief Premier

and try them out

 

probably best to discuss your needs with CA's customer service on Monday

they can advise if HD PRO or Chief Premier would better suit your needs

 

while Chief Premier can seem expensive at $2395 for a one-time homeowner

it can be well worth the cost in playing the "what-if" game

 

for my sister's addition we went with 17 variations of design concerning size of the room

and placement of stairs and laundry

 

architect fees can get VERY expensive

 

we sent her final specs with 2D and 3D specs and the engineer creating the CD's

made 14 mistakes

 

while there may be some Architects that use Sketchup as their primary design tool

I suspect it is way less than those using Chief Premier

 

probably even fewer using HD PRO

 

I have suggested to CA many, many times that PRO is mis-named and should be called
Master or Deluxe and it mis-leads buyers into thinking it is for Professional's

and with its limits it sorta doesn't really fit their needs except for very small

 

if you do go with HD PRO then decide to upgrade to Chief Premier then the cost is applied

to the upgrade

 

also after your project is done you can sell Chief Premier (or HD PRO) and expect to recover

approx. 70-80% of the cost if the license is still current with current SSA option

 

if you do chose an architect that uses Chief Premier once they edit the plan

HD PRO may or may not be able to edit any sections that use features that

HD PRO doesn't have

 

the HD PRO and Chief Premier versions also need to be based on the same platform

if one is newer then the older can't open the newer plan

 

Lew

[lbuttery]

BTW:  I have Sketchup PRO 2014 for sale for $400

 

see this thread:

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/1724-sketchup-pro-2014-license-for-sale/

 

Lew

[Gawdzira]

Can of worms, meet Mr. Can Opener...(Not addressed to you Michael, or Lew). I highly agree with what Michael wrote above.

 

When it comes to design I push the keyboard and mouse out of my way and grab a roll of trace paper and some pens. The computer is an awful tool for design (my opinion). I love the computer for production and presentation (mostly). Recently, I have had the best reception from clients when I grab my colored pencils and draw on top of an elevation. There is something primal that we respond to when something is hand drawn. It can have a lot more emotion. I am wandering off the topic.

 

If you want to offer your input to the designer she/he can take that from any medium you offer. If you want to be able to manipulate the design work (via the cad program) and working on his file, you may have a hard time finding an architect open to that sort of potential mess. You are probably better off with a piece of trace paper and a scanner to share your ideas. You can even do this with a "go to meeting" type of interface and pointing with your mouse at their screen.

 

I could go on but the oven is ready for the pizza (literally, I am cooking a pizza).

[LiteMari]

Thank you all, good points many of which I have considered already but take on new meaning when shared by professionals and in the context of other points they are making.My overall focus is NOT the software someone uses, but since this forum is mostly focused there that is what I have inquired about. I do agree that just because someone can offer a good rendering does not mean that it is a good design OR that it is a match to what I as a client have in mind.

 

I look at the blueprints of the spec house that I live in that has many varied ceiling heights, open floor plan, and borrowed views and light infiltration from adjacent rooms and know that those 2D outputs would give me very little sense of what the actual house might look and feel like. Any 3D output, or hand drawn isometric would give me more a sense and is that aspect that I am focusing on in my questions. It seems like SketchUp as well CA Premier offer good options, indeed floorplanner.com where I have begun to play around offers me some good preliminary sense of interactions amongst rooms etc. One architect that I is high on my short list exclusively uses SketchUp Pro for his design work (as well as some hand drawn sketches with client during schematic phase) and I realize that Nick Sonder is probably at an extreme end of scale in his capabilities with SketchUp.

 

Again thanks for all of the input, it truly is helpful, and since I am likely to purchase HD Pro it is not only because it is very good program but the forum adds so much value to the software to have a great community that cuts ones learning curve (even though I know HD forum is not this one which is focused on CA).

 

I don't want to edit a file that an architect offers to me, but potentially being able to use it in my lower end version of program in same software family and therefore use my own camera views of it or simply orbit around it seems to me a great advantage to me to get a good feel for things. And yes I agree that sometimes paper and colored pencils and blobs of color and tonality are great tools as they are wonderful shorthands for the emotional tone that is wanted as a response or mood for a particular space within the home.

[Barton_Brown]

I don't want to edit a file that an architect offers to me, but potentially being able to use it in my lower end version of program in same software family and therefore use my own camera views of it or simply orbit around it seems to me a great advantage to me to get a good feel for things. And yes I agree that sometimes paper and colored pencils and blobs of color and tonality are great tools as they are wonderful shorthands for the emotional tone that is wanted as a response or mood for a particular space within the home.

I'm a little late to this party but...

Your comment about blobs of color reminded me of a discussion that occurred on this forum a few years ago. The discussion was about how architects and designers interacted with their clients using 3D renders and ray trace images. During the discussion the point was made that some architects/designers preferred to NOT provide their clients with high detail renders or ray traces early in the 'concept' phase of the design. The reason - too many of the clients would focus on the minute details of the image rather than recognize the spacial aspects of the design. Fortunately for the architects and designers, this was about the time, I think, that CA started providing a number of different types of render views, and the favorite one used in this situation was the 'watercolor render'. It provides enough detail to show the concepts without having the details distract the client from the overall design.

 

That said, once you are past the concept phase, the details can be important and then the ray trace images can shine. I'm continuously amazed at how much just changing the texture or color of a finish can influence the overall impression of a design. Not all great architects and designers are also great interior/exterior designers. This might be the area where being able to view, and even alter colors or finishes in a design could be very helpful for a client to experiment with without requiring the architects direct involvement unless the client wishes. Of course, this can also be a can of worms if the client has no design sense...

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts...

[Richard_Morrison]

Some of the best architects I know still use a pencil to draw plans. While I think that they are missing out on some great time-savings and error-avoidance, a client who doesn't hire them because they don't like the tools they use is missing out, too. I would focus more on the quality of the relationship (e.g. how interested are they in what you have to say) and the design quality of past projects, than the specific tool they are using. If they don't have e-mail, that might be an issue. If they are using Vectorworks or Archicad or Autocad, rather than Chief or Sketchup, you shouldn't care, IMO.