Depth of window interior mullion

[rlackore]

I'm placing large window groups into an ICF wall. As built in the field it's a single punched opening and the depth of the window interior mullions will be set by the structural mull, probably a single 2x4 or 2x6. My problem is that Chief generates the interior mullions the full depth of the wall. I've tried messing around with settings, workarounds, etc., but I can't discover a way to "fix" this issue. If anyone has a solution, I'd appreciate learning about it.

 

 

windows.plan

[Bill_Emery]

Try this.

I've not looked at the plan, but this should help. 

 

 

Just looked at the plan.  I see you have your frame depth at 3", but have not unchecked "fit frame to wall"

[rlackore]

Try this.

I've not looked at the plan, but this should help. 

 

 

Just looked at the plan.  I see you have your frame depth at 3", but have not unchecked "fit frame to wall"

 

Bill, I already tried the adjusting frame depth - it doesn't help. Here's a pic with all the windows un-mulled, frame depth at 3", not fit to wall:

 

[Bill_Emery]

You'll also have to set the distance between windows to zero.  You may have to adjust your frame width to get the look that you want.

For more control over inset windows in a deep wall see D Scott Hall's "bucking window" thread.

[rlackore]

Bill,

 

Setting the distance between the windows means I can't control the width required for a structural mull. I check Scott's thread.

 

Thanks.

[rlackore]

Alright, I check the Bucking Window thread. It's really not pertinent to my issue.

[dshall]

Randy,  I think Bill nailed it,  set the min distance to zero,  you have it set at 1"....  hopefully you can live without that 1" separation.

 

Give it a try.

 

 

[dshall]

Bill,

 

Setting the distance between the windows means I can't control the width required for a structural mull. I check Scott's thread.

 

Thanks.

 

Do you need the structural mull?  I guess you do,  you probably know better than I.

[Bill_Emery]

It's possible to manipulate the frame width and depth to represent the structural mull.  It won't automatically show framing, but could be edited to do so, or just shown with cad.

 

The "bucking window may be more applicable than you think, as a thinner wall set into an opening can give you better control of how the framing looks, and a more accurate representation of the window.

[rlackore]

Do you need the structural mull?  I guess you do,  you probably know better than I.

 

Yes, I need the structural mull: Exposure Category C, top of a hill with about 1/3 mile fetch. Regardless, setting the distance between the windows to 0" doesn't remove the deep interior mullion:

 

[rlackore]

What would be nice is if we could work with window groups in a fashion similar to how we can work with cabinets: divide horizontal, divide vertical, adjust widths and depths until we get the overall divisions correct, then "insert" the actual windows into each division just like adding an appliance. This would work great for storefronts, also. Ideally, the overall opening in the wall would be treated like a punched opening, which would solve my deep interior mullion issue.

[dshall]

.....Regardless, setting the distance between the windows to 0" doesn't remove the deep interior mullion:

 

windows3.PNG

 

 

I disagree.

windows 112.plan

[dshall]

I get your point Randy,  you cannot do what you want......  a mull frame that is the depth of window frame and NOT the thickness of the wall.  

[rlackore]

I disagree.

 

You inset the windows within the wall. I'm keeping the windows flush with the outside of the ICF form for flashing purposes and to provide a ledge on the interior.

[rlackore]

 you want......  a mull frame that is the depth of window frame and NOT the thickness of the wall.  

 

Essentially, yes.

[Alaskan_Son]

Robert,

 

Are you actually using zero casing like you have in the plan?

[rlackore]

Robert,

 

Are you actually using zero casing like you have in the plan?

 

Yes - drywall returns.

[Joe_Carrick]

This is the case where having no casings suppresses the frame.  I have noted this as a problem and requested it be changed several times.  I think the only way to handle this problem at the current time is to create a Window Symbol that includes the Structural Mulls and the Frame.

[johnny]

What would be nice is if we could work with window groups in a fashion similar to how we can work with cabinets: divide horizontal, divide vertical, adjust widths and depths until we get the overall divisions correct, then "insert" the actual windows into each division just like adding an appliance. This would work great for storefronts, also. Ideally, the overall opening in the wall would be treated like a punched opening, which would solve my deep interior mullion issue.

 

I agree 100%.  Id like to see it be an added tool, not in place of simple windows.  So something like "complex windows/doors" tool.  Having this tool inside CA would be massive improvement for light commercial projects.

[Alaskan_Son]

There are some material color limitations with this technique, it works best if you're using a casing (even just very small casing), and dimensions might not be perfect, but you can set the frame to zero, mull the units, and then set the mullion depth to whatever you want...

You can also get much more accurate model by making a symbol out of a window built using the above technique. Just remove all casings as sills, delete wall surfaces, create symbol, and set the symbol to provide rectangular casing. This would require some CAD work in plan though and maybe some schedule modifications.

[Joe_Carrick]

Robert, 

 

1.  Create your Window in a wall that's the exact thickness that you want the Window Frame and Structural Mull to be.

2.  Use the "Erase Surface" tool to eliminate the casings and wall surfaces.

3.  Add the Structural Mull around the Window using Solids

4.  Convert this to a Window Symbol and add it to the Library.

5.  Insert in your ICF Wall and suppress the casings and set the RO gaps to zero.

 

6.  You may need to adjust the "y" origin of the Symbol to get the right inset.  You can actually do that to the Symbol in the Library.

[rlackore]

Robert, 

 

1.  Create your Window in a wall that's the exact thickness that you want the Window Frame and Structural Mull to be.

2.  Use the "Erase Surface" tool to eliminate the casings and wall surfaces.

3.  Add the Structural Mull around the Window using Solids

4.  Convert this to a Window Symbol and add it to the Library.

5.  Insert in your ICF Wall and suppress the casings and set the RO gaps to zero.

 

6.  You may need to adjust the "y" origin of the Symbol to get the right inset.  You can actually do that to the Symbol in the Library.

 

I can't get that to work. I created the symbol in a wall with a total depth of 6-1/2". Here's a pic of it inserted into the 6-1/2" wall:

 

When I insert the symbol into a my 11" deep ICF wall, the mullions adjust to that depth:

 

This behavior is easily confirmed by cutting a couple sections:

 

But, maybe I did something wrong. I'm also having a problem with the symbol's CAD block position in plan, but that's a separate issue.

windows.plan

[Joe_Carrick]

Did you uncheck "Fit to Wall"?

In the Symbol dbx did you set a "Stretch Plane" @ y = 1"?

[rlackore]

Did you uncheck "Fit to Wall"?

In the Symbol dbx did you set a "Stretch Plane" @ y = 1"?

 

Nope, I didn't.

 

Frame>Fit to Wall doesn't make a difference. Setting the Y Stretch Plane to -1" does. Now the remaining issues are:

1. I don't have control over the interior vs exterior trim materials, or the sill materials.

2. I need to build the actual drywall returns into the symbol to fix crazy z-fighting where the frame doesn't cover the wall depth.

3. Figure out if all this hassle is worth it for the 61 unique windows groups in my project.

 

Thanks for your help, Joe.

[Joe_Carrick]

Trim for this would have to be done either as a part of the Symbol or as 3D Molding Polylines done in elevation.