Control batt insulation size for material list counts reporting

[GeneDavis]

I have searched in help and find nothing.  I go to the material list line and click the column in which the OOB default batt size is shown (6" x 16" x 97" batts) and it opens up a set of options I do not understand, some of it macro of which I have no knowledge, so please help.

 

Is there a training video that deals with this?  I want the count for the Rockwool R23 5.5 x 23 x 47 batts we use in all the jobs.

[robdyck]

 

[GeneDavis]

I saw that, Rob, which is why I went to a plan and did the material list and saw it had the batt size different from my preference.

 

We frame at 24" centers an use batts 5.5 x 23 x 47.  It is reporting 6 x 16 x 97.

 

I know area is what to do, but was exploring because of that other thread about piece counts.

 

I know nothing about macros.  How could I get a bag count to report  knowing sf/bag?

 

 

[robdyck]

52 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

I know nothing about macros.  How could I get a bag count to report  knowing sf/bag?

the math can be performed right in the components tab for walls.

simply add the math at the end of the existing count formula and apply to the source object. The text to add would be "/50" (replace the number with your correct sq ft number per bag).

However, if I may be bluntly honest, I think this is dumb because there are so many types of insulation and they all have a different quantity per bag.

There are couple of ways this can be organized but it could require multiple wall types with a variety of insulation material names. And obviously some project are simple while other are complex. For example, I frequently have projects with 4 different types of wall insulation. And almost never any with batts in floor or ceilings.

All these variables lead to an increased opportunity for error. Fortunately in my region, there are no GC's who need to know insulation quantities. They are all looked after by the sub-contractor.

[GeneDavis]

Thanks.  I was really looking at it as an exercise in Chief, after seeing the post from the guy who seems to want it reported on his material list.  I provide material lists for one of my builder clients, but it's only for lumber and structural hardware, plus sheathing and if he wants it, sheetrock.  Never insulation.

[robdyck]

1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

sheetrock.  Never insulation.

I think a conversation with clients about how materials report is also worth having. For example, some people would actually want the sheetrock reported in area instead of board count.

And last time I checked, the drywall area on exterior walls was essentially the same area needed for vapor barrier and insulation. 

The long and short of it is, to get these reported usefully, we need to control the input. Chief doesn't just do it for us, but it gives us the tools.

 

And my main point about adding an insulation layer to exterior walls is to keep the material count in chief instead of adding it to an external spreadhseet, and to avoid the black hole time suck of trying to alter the default batt insulation count.

[Chrisb222]

2 hours ago, robdyck said:

multiple wall types with a variety of insulation material names.

 

Funny you say that, I played around with that idea after seeing this thread and could not get the material list to recognize a custom insulation material. I was able to fool it into reporting a custom insulation material, but only by making the program think it was either a wallboard or a framing material type, which made it report the material under either the Wall Board category or the Framing category, respectively. 

 

I had the idea because I already use multiple wall types with custom drywall materials that do report the various sizes I use, but I couldn't get it to work with insulation. I would be interested to see your technique.

[robdyck]

8 minutes ago, Chrisb222 said:

I would be interested to see your technique.

I was just referring to a 0 thickness layer added to the wall definition, just under the vapor barrier. I just created a material named Insulation Area and defined its material list property to report as 'area'. In the wall spec dialog, you would then edit all its properties so it reports in the correct categories.

You could create material copies like Insulation Area - R20 or Ins. Area - R22, etc. This creates complexity in the plan and I would NEVER use varying wall types like this during design development.

I would ALWAYS make a separate copy of a completed plan that I alter strictly for the purpose of the materials list.

[Alaskan_Son]

27 minutes ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Funny you say that, I played around with that idea after seeing this thread and could not get the material list to recognize a custom insulation material. I was able to fool it into reporting a custom insulation material, but only by making the program think it was either a wallboard or a framing material type, which returned the material under either the Wall Board category or the Framing category, respectively. 

 

I had the idea because I already use multiple wall types with custom drywall materials that do report the various sizes I use, but I couldn't get it to work with insulation. I would be interested to see your technique.

Just add a new Component to your Wall definition.  

[robdyck]

37 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Just add a new Component to your Wall definition.  

I think this is what has many of us stuck. How do you create a component that will report the same material amount as drywall or vapor barrier?

 

[robdyck]

50 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Just add a new Component to your Wall definition.  

This would be like if you and I went for a mountain bike ride and after I got tired of waiting at the top of each hill I suggested that you should pedal faster and in a higher gear!

You know things about Chief that most of us never will!

[GeneDavis]

So the batt insulation is somehow hard-coded and one cannot change it?

[Chrisb222]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Just add a new Component to your Wall definition.  

 

Whew okay, learned some stuff today. I had already added an insulation layer to the wall definition, but didn't realize I had to also go into the Components tab of the Wall Specifications dialog and specify the ID of the custom insulation as Insulation.

 

Thanks for the bread crumb... 

 

I'm just doing this as an exercise too. To the original question in the OP, yes, a custom insulation material could be created to report custom batt sizes or even bag quantities, but then you have redundant wall insulation being reported. I was able to "delete" the default wall insulation component, sort of.... by just blanking out the information in the components tab, or changing its ID to something else. But I don't see how to remove it, or anywhere in the program to specify the default wall insulation....

[Chrisb222]

4 minutes ago, solver said:

Select it, click the X above.

 

Ah, yes thanks.

[Chrisb222]

3 minutes ago, solver said:

And that seems to be the problem. I searched and could not find a setting.

 

Wall insulation doesn't even appear in the wall specs until you enclose a conditioned room, so there doesn't seem to be any way to customize what is used for wall insulation until after the room is created. Floor and ceiling insulation are also automatic although they can be controlled somewhat in each room's default settings.... but only individually, which is not very convenient either.

[robdyck]

50 minutes ago, Chrisb222 said:

so there doesn't seem to be any way to customize what is used for wall insulation until after the room is created

This is dependent on the path you choose to calculate insulation.

 

If you add a layer to the wall definition, then the room (thermal envelope) is irrelevant. IMO this method is the most bullet proof and is one of the easiest ways to edit all walls of a type at once. This requires no macros, no math.

 

If you use an added component, then you will need to define the difference between conditioned and unconditioned space which is determined by rooms. If you were to accidentally toggle a room to not follow its default, or if the conditioned space default is setup incorrectly for the room, the insulation amount would be incorrect.

 

In Eric's example, if you reference a wall's layer, then you will need a more complex macro if you have a pony wall, and you'd need to edit the macro if you changed the wall layers in the wall definition dialog.

 

If I were following Eric's example, I'd probably use the following in the Count column: =owner.thermal_envelope_area.round

I'd delete Chief's wall insulation component and add my own insulation component.

 

Further to the wall components, with a little experimentation, you can add in a lot of materials that follow walls, that Chief doesn't model or factor in. Weeping Tile & crushed rock, foundation waterproofing, Metric spec rebar, are just a few examples.

 

[GeneDavis]

When you calculate the area of wall cavity in a wall run with windows and a door, the factor for insulation area relating to the total wall area is around 0.8, and this, after taking away the openings.

 

The studs, plates, and headers add up.

 

R23 Roxul wool batts, the ones I mentioned, cost over $3 a square foot.  When you order, you want it right, and if we get Chief producing material counts, we should expect accuracy, and user control via spec input that yields usable results.

 

Reporting in square feet is preferred.  Every package of rolls or batts displays its quantity in s.f.

 

The data is all there in Chief.  Plates, studs, spacing, and headers.  What's missing, until framing actually is built, is the timber content for the wall junctions, the corners and tees, and the posts at load points, all of which further reduce insulation cavity area.  With framing built, though, the data is there for those adjustments to the count.

[Alaskan_Son]

8 hours ago, robdyck said:

How do you create a component that will report the same material amount as drywall or vapor barrier?

 

1. Open Object or Object Defaults
2. Click on Components tab
3. Click Add Line Item (+)
4. Edit the required Formula fields and parse information from the Wall's Layer information.  I don't have time to go into Ruby specifics though. 

If you're looking to get insulation information though, there are name:value pairs that specifically report insulation cavity information.

[Alaskan_Son]

8 hours ago, robdyck said:

This would be like if you and I went for a mountain bike ride and after I got tired of waiting at the top of each hill I suggested that you should pedal faster and in a higher gear!

 

If I asked how to keep up then I think that would be a perfectly valid answer.

[Alaskan_Son]

7 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

So the batt insulation is somehow hard-coded and one cannot change it?

 

Sort of.  The height seems to be hard coded to a standard 93" batt.  The width seems to be hard coded to be either 4" or 6" depending on the wall thickness.  The width however is controlled by your Framing Defaults>Wall>Stud Spacing setting (even if you're not actually framing your walls using this setting.)

[Alaskan_Son]

7 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

To the original question in the OP, yes, a custom insulation material could be created to report custom batt sizes or even bag quantities, but then you have redundant wall insulation being reported. I was able to "delete" the default wall insulation component, sort of.... by just blanking out the information in the components tab, or changing its ID to something else. But I don't see how to remove it

 

Chief definitely doesn't make this one easy, but you can do away with the redundancy if you'd like.  If you select a wall after the insulation component has already been automatically added and then delete that component, you can add that wall to your library or click Make Default and it will no longer automatically generate the insulation component.  

[Alaskan_Son]

6 hours ago, solver said:

Draw 4 walls to create a conditioned room.

 

Select a wall and make the changes in the Formula column. Optionally save wall in library/template etc.

 

Run a Materials List.

 

The downside to doing this is that EVERY wall using that Wall Definition will get insulation.  A person then has to make sure and always use insulated vs. non-insulated walls in all the appropriate locations unless they make their formula more complex to deal with whether or not the wall is separating a conditioned space from an unconditioned space or not. 

[Alaskan_Son]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:58 PM, robdyck said:

This is dependent on the path you choose to calculate insulation.

 

If you add a layer to the wall definition, then the room (thermal envelope) is irrelevant. IMO this method is the most bullet proof and is one of the easiest ways to edit all walls of a type at once. This requires no macros, no math.

 

If you use an added component, then you will need to define the difference between conditioned and unconditioned space which is determined by rooms. If you were to accidentally toggle a room to not follow its default, or if the conditioned space default is setup incorrectly for the room, the insulation amount would be incorrect.

 

In Eric's example, if you reference a wall's layer, then you will need a more complex macro if you have a pony wall, and you'd need to edit the macro if you changed the wall layers in the wall definition dialog.

 

If I were following Eric's example, I'd probably use the following in the Count column: =owner.thermal_envelope_area.round

I'd delete Chief's wall insulation component and add my own insulation component.

 

Further to the wall components, with a little experimentation, you can add in a lot of materials that follow walls, that Chief doesn't model or factor in. Weeping Tile & crushed rock, foundation waterproofing, Metric spec rebar, are just a few examples.

 

 

You make some good observations.  It should be noted however that one way or another though, a person has to make sure to define insulated area properly.  They either have to do it by properly using room definitions or by using the appropriate walls.  There's no way around that part.

[Alaskan_Son]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:59 PM, GeneDavis said:

When you calculate the area of wall cavity in a wall run with windows and a door, the factor for insulation area relating to the total wall area is around 0.8, and this, after taking away the openings.

 

The studs, plates, and headers add up.

 

R23 Roxul wool batts, the ones I mentioned, cost over $3 a square foot.  When you order, you want it right, and if we get Chief producing material counts, we should expect accuracy, and user control via spec input that yields usable results.

 

Reporting in square feet is preferred.  Every package of rolls or batts displays its quantity in s.f.

 

The data is all there in Chief.  Plates, studs, spacing, and headers.  What's missing, until framing actually is built, is the timber content for the wall junctions, the corners and tees, and the posts at load points, all of which further reduce insulation cavity area.  With framing built, though, the data is there for those adjustments to the count.

Here's a quick example wall that should do approximately what you're looking for.  Open it up and inspect the various component settings. 

Custom Insulation Wall.calibz