X13 Internal Rendering Error & Crash

[Kadoyle8]

I've been getting the following error message with increasing frequency:

"An internal rendering error has occurred and the program will terminate. Device removed."

 

It's generally happening in any kind of Camera mode, but occasionally occurs at random when opening an item, looking at an elevation, etc. Chief Architect support hasn't yet figured out a way to help - we've made sure to check for and disable any programs or processes that are known to conflict. I've also made sure that the graphics card is going to the right one for Chief. Onedrive is removed from the computer as well, and I've toggled through camera settings to see if there is any improvement made with shadows, bloom, etc. 

 

I have two laptops (thinking perhaps it was a hardware issue on my first new one), and both, especially the newer one, meet or exceed all of the system requirements suggested. The newer one with a stronger graphics card has been behaving much better, but the error is still occurring at random. 

 

Has anyone else experienced this and hopefully found a solution?

[CompuDesign]

Yes. My MSI RXT3080 64gb x13, windows11 2TB SSD laptop, no longer functions in 3d with out crashing to your message. It to gradually worsened. Several others have mentioned the same on FB, all with RXT3070 or 3080 laptops MSI and ASUS systems. 

 

Contacted CA Tech, sent System Summary and Messages reports as well as disabling apps and drivers they suggested and rebooting to clear cache to no avail, but they are continuing to look into this. I was concerned about Onedrive so good to know you've already tried that. All other programs are working fine to include Twin Motion. 

 

I'm hoping that if a few more people describe this problem and their setup, we can find a common denominator and help resolve this issue. 

 

I'm currently working off an older computer until we can get this resolved so any info would be helpful, to many of us.

[CompuDesign]

Here's a possible solution to x13 crash issue from a FB user:

 

"Alan Lehman

Try this: If you are having crashing problems with X13, these steps took care of the problem for me (95%).

1. Restore Nvidia Control panel to default settings, remove Chief from program settings.

2. Put chief back into program settings, I only changed Open GL rendering to use the Nvidia card (but I doubt that matters with X13)

3. Be sure Windows Graphic Settings has Chief set to High Performance."

[Kadoyle8]

I experienced this on an MSI laptop with a 3070 card, and then now on a razer advanced with a 3080 card. The 3080 is improved, but not ideal. Does anyone operate with no issue on a different graphics card? I'm predominately working on kitchens, so often the camera view is working with a ton of image and texture files - but if I'm at or exceeding the suggested system specs, I'm not sure how I can be crashing it so often. My coworker does not have the issue, and I believe has a 3080 card. 

 

Thanks, I'll give that shot. I think I've that before, but it can't hurt to attempt again. 

[mtrconstruction]

I am also having this problem. I have a MSI laptop with every requirement and above what it has said recommended. Sad part is I just purchased this software last night 11/29/2021, and im not to happy about it. I own a construction company, we had softplan, we switched over to Chief Architect which was highly recommended from a friend of ours. this is the error message that shows up every time i try to do a 3D camera view.  

C:\perforce\ryanm\dev\Astral\Releases\1.2\Astral\AstralRender\Engine\RenderingPipeline.cpp(184): Error #272032750

"An internal rendering error has occurred and the program will terminate: Device Removed"

11/30/2021 8:19:40 AM

Build: 23.3.0.81x64

 

Hopefully this gets resolved, If not then we are going to get another software.

[Kadoyle8]

Well, the louder we are about this, the better. From the deep dives in ChiefTalk in the past few weeks, it does appear that this issue is brand new to X13, so there has to be a fix somewhere.

 

@mtrconstruction- MSI has a lot of nonsense gaming software/processes loaded that will conflict with Chief. Check this thread and make any necessary adjustments. My first laptop was an MSI (meeting all system requirements) and I found nearly all of these issues installed, and while it obviously didn't fix the problem, it was band-aids to it, and did help with the performance. CA support is very helpful and will talk you through all of the steps needed if you'd prefer. I would also definitely start a case with them and send in the reports they'll ask for, the more information their developers have, the more likely we are to find a solution. 

 

 

[Kbird1]

Not working on a Laptop ( make sure you don't have overheating issues ) but do have a 3080 and have found since the last release that the 

crashes seem to be all in older plans started in X12 , and usually in a 3D Camera , eg trying to use Mouse Orbit to rotate the Model.

 

Mick.

[Kadoyle8]

@Kbird1 I'm not sure that the X12 plans are the driving factor here unfortunately, but it's very interesting you noticed that trend - I started using CA with X13 only, and it's the only version I've used and that any of my plans have existed in. It sounds like some users above are in the same boat. I definitely agree that the crash happens almost exclusively in 3D camera mode though. 

 

The setting suggested above to set the Nvidia panel to default but windows settings to forcing Chief into using the 3080 does help quite a bit. It's not perfect, and since this error is random, I'm not convinced yet at all, but it's an improvement. 

[Dermot]

Recently, we have been getting a number of reports of "device removed" error messages specifically having to do with Windows 11 and NVIDIA 3000 series video cards.  Unfortunately, we have been having trouble reliably duplicating these errors in house.  Just yesterday one of our developers was able to duplicate this problem for awhile but then it mysteriously stopped happening and we don't know why yet. 

 

At this point, we are still not sure if the problem is a Chief problem or a device driver problem.  It could also be the result of some 3rd party software that is interfering with how Chief interacts with the video card.  You might be able to help us by providing us with more detailed information.

 

If you are experiencing these problems, then please contact our technical support team during our normal business hours.  You will need to provide them with some specific information about your system so that we can try determine what the common denominator is for the people that are experiencing this.  If the problem has started or stopped happening after making any changes to your system, then let us know this as well.

 

You can contact technical support here:

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/#contact

 

We apologize for any inconvenience that this is causing.  Please be assured that resolving these problems is our top priority.

 

[Kadoyle8]

Thanks! That sounds typical of my experience - if I'm asked to replicate it, the program works perfectly, but the second I want it to cooperate, the error is constant. It leaves the program functional, but extremely frustrating and challenging to accomplish work. It works moderately more reliably when on the laptop screen only, and not connecting to additional monitors. 

 

I have submitted the requested logs and files for two different computers that experienced this issue, so hopefully we all can all reach a solution soon. 

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, Kadoyle8 said:

The setting suggested above to set the Nvidia panel to default but windows settings to forcing Chief into using the 3080 does help quite a bit. It's not perfect, and since this error is random, I'm not convinced yet at all, but it's an improvement. 

 

I currently have not allow Win11 on this system, not wanting to be a guinea-pig  

 

I have also set all Nvidia Panel 3D Management Options to Default ...and don't add Chief on the Programs tab now either.

 

New Drivers out today if you use the GR Drivers, I have noted recently that CA now recommends the Studio Drivers though.

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/16205-nvidia-drivers-updated/?do=findComment&comment=256204

(see the 1st Post too for Driver Links)

 

If you are multi-monitor and you laptop uses Nahimic Software Audio enhancements also check this post.....

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/28384-multi-monitor-issue-fix-for-computers-with-nahimic-audio/?do=getNewComment

 

I only Set the Win10>Settings> GPU Graphics  GPU Scaling to On and then added Chief and set it to High Performance

 

  

 

 

[Dermot]

Just wanted to give you all a quick update...

 

Our testing team is still having problems finding a reliable way of reproducing this problem or any reliable workarounds.  They have setup a special test machine with a specific test case that will randomly crash but they have found it can take anywhere from 20 to 2,500 consecutive tries to get the problem.  We are trying out new fixes using new theories daily but this random behavior is making it very difficult to find a solution quickly.

 

Our current theory is that this is a video card driver issue with the new Windows 11 OS.  We are also trying to work with Nvidia to see if they can help us find a solution for this problem.  When we last spoke to them, they said they could not reproduce the problem.  Unfortunately, they were not actually using a 3000 series card on Windows 11 when they tried.  Hopefully, we can get this problem looked at by someone else there that is a little more experienced.

 

If you are having this problem, and you have a reliable way of reproducing it or a reliable way of avoiding it, please contact our technical support team and give them whatever information you might have.

 

Also, if you have an Nvidia 3000 series card and you are still using Windows 10, I would highly recommend that you do not upgrade to Windows 11 just yet.

 

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience that this is causing and please be assured that this is still our top priority.

 

[Kbird1]

14 minutes ago, Dermot said:

Also, if you have an Nvidia 3000 series card and you are still using Windows 10, I would highly recommend that you do not upgrade to Windows 11 just yet.

 

I am on Win10 , but only seem to see this issue when I am working in older plans started in Earlier Versions and have been seeing it since Beta.

 

I also have the bad Black Flashing Issue still when Sending to layout and Saving Cameras on occasion.

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/32432-send-to-layout-and-save-view-issue-black-screen-flashes/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-255566

 

Mick.

 

 

[Rich_Winsor]

12 hours ago, Dermot said:

...We are also trying to work with Nvidia to see if they can help us find a solution for this problem.  When we last spoke to them, they said they could not reproduce the problem.  Unfortunately, they were not actually using a 3000 series card on Windows 11 when they tried. 

I find this totally incredible. I get it that there is a

shortage of 3000 series cards on the market, but

Nvidia doesn't have one to put in their test rig? 

[Chief_Franklin]

Scratch that. It just happened again.

 

I may have found a temporary fix. I was having crashes frequently in the 3d view and haven't had any since changing this setting. In the Nvidia Control Panel try going to "manage 3d settings" under "program settings" and turning on "image sharpening." So far that appears to be working for me. I also set OpenGL rendering GPU to my 3090, power management mode to prefer maximum performance, and preferred refresh rate to highest available.

 

I'm running Windows 11 with an RTX 3090 on the latest gaming driver and using X13. I've tried rolling back to previous drivers, reinstalling Chief Architect, changing TdrLevel and TdrDelay values with Regedit, and several other fixes, but nothing else worked. I'll report back later if I have any crashes, but so far so good with just turning on image sharpening.

[Kadoyle8]

I experienced this issue on Windows 10 as well, but my current laptop is running a 3080 on Windows 11.

 

I'm finding it much more common in two scenarios - one, small areas with quite a few finishes involved (i.e., kitchen, bathroom, etc.), and often when trying to change material settings within the item options.

[Dermot]

Just to be clear, all "device removed" error messages are not necessarily caused by the same problems. 

 

The "device removed" error message is a very generic error message that only really means that there was some kind of low level error that occurred while we were trying to generate the view. These can be caused by a wide variety of system problems, video card driver bugs, and bugs in Chief itself.  

 

My posts above were specifically about frequent and random "device removed" error messages while using an Nvidia 3000 series card on Windows 11. Any problems using some other OS or some other video card are probably not related. 

 

Please report all repeatable "device removed" error messages directly to our tech support team regardless of what video card or OS you are using:

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/

 

[NickBigelow]

This has been happing on my old laptop and new laptop which is a MSI with intel 7 and Nvidia GTX 3070

I unfortunately already updated both laptops with windows 11 but I'm pretty sure this may have been happing on my old laptop with widows 10 

 

[Kbird1]

47 minutes ago, NickBigelow said:

This has been happing on my old laptop and new laptop which is a MSI with intel 7 and Nvidia GTX 3070

I unfortunately already updated both laptops with windows 11 but I'm pretty sure this may have been happing on my old laptop with widows 10 

 

 

 

Have you made sure Chief is using the 3070 and that you have set the Discrete GPU (3070) to be  used for Chief ? maybe already done?  but......

 

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/article/KB-00106/troubleshooting-3d-camera-view-display-problems-in-chief-architect.html

and

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/article/KB-03140/forcing-chief-architect-programs-to-use-a-specific-graphics-card-in-windows-10.html

 

[Kadoyle8]

I'm not totally sure what the issue would be to pinpoint here, but I just replaced the new razer laptop I was using (hardware issue unrelated to CA), and essentially went overboard on the tech specs for this new one. So far, I've been using it for about two weeks and haven't had any issues - fingers crossed I'm not jinxing it now. Unfortunately it wasn't any setting changes, but just a much more powerful computer. The biggest graphics difference is a 3080 16gb, vs. the 3080 8gb I was previously using. A colleague had that graphics card spec the entire time I was struggling with CA errors, and he never once experienced the issue in this thread.

[Chief_Franklin]

This issue isn't being caused by underpowered computers. I'm having it with an RTX 3090, Ryzen 9 5900x, and 32gb of RAM. Does your new computer have Windows 11 and the latest Chief X13?

[Kadoyle8]

Interesting - no, this one came with Windows 10, and I'm avoiding upgrading to 11. I am using the latest version of Chief though.

[TrimbachDesign]

Any updates on a fix yet Dermot? The problem seems to be happening more frequently, dozens of times per day. Should we go back to Windows 10? If you guys are getting close on a fix, I'd rather keep my machine on 11. 

 

[TrimbachDesign]

For me the problem seems to be frequent when I'm in a camera in Standard mode...I don't think it has ever occurred in PB ray trace mode...

 

I'm wondering if the real time ray tracing is talking directly from Chief Architect to GPU and skipping Windows 11 in the middle. Whereas Standard mode is being run through the OS? 

 

 

[Kadoyle8]

I've experienced it on both Ray Trace and Standard camera mode, so I'm not sure it was reliant on that unfortunately. Definitely more common in Standard, however, I also was avoiding using camera modes as much as possible. It also occurred in the material settings of individual objects.