PBR w/ Realtime Ray-tracing Questions in X13


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I've been experimenting with PBR in X13.  Wow!  I am impressed that the results are so photoreal.  I have a question in regards to reflections.  In the second image below, I am in the shower taking a shot of the vanity.  Is it not possible to pick up the reflections behind glass?  Is there a setting I am missing or is this a limitation of the software?  I thought ray-tracing in X12 was capable of this. Thanks, Kevin

test03.jpg

test02.jpg

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I've been experimenting with PBR in X13.  Wow!  I am impressed that the results are so photoreal.  I have a question in regards to reflections.  In the second image below, I am in the shower taking a

You are possibly right as I see the glass block reflected in the Shower Door but beyond that everything looks less reflective.  ( except door casing)    I am not sure about the new engine bu

Hmmmm , I wonder what is missing as it seems to have everything needed..... ie Shader 6.0 or above , RTX Cores etc.... I thought it was similar to the 2000 series of RTX Cards?   If you can

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2 hours ago, kwhitt said:

Is it not possible to pick up the reflections behind glass?

 

You are possibly right as I see the glass block reflected in the Shower Door but beyond that everything looks less reflective.  ( except door casing) 

 

I am not sure about the new engine but in x12  Mirrors could not reflect other mirrors

 

Pretty powerful system you got there by the looks of it , did you try MarkMc little X13 Test? 

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/31337-relative-gpu-performance-in-x13-class-project/?tab=comments#comment-247062

 

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Forgot to ask if the 1st Image is an old style CPU RT or the New PBR-RT View Type Image ? 

 

Looks pretty good either way :) 

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1 minute ago, Kbird1 said:

 

You are possibly right as I see the glass block reflected in the Shower Door but beyond that everything looks less reflective.  ( except door casing) 

 

I am not sure about the new engine but in x12  Mirrors could not reflect other mirrors

 

Pretty powerful system you got there by the looks of it , did you try MarkMc little X13 Test? 

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/31337-relative-gpu-performance-in-x13-class-project/?tab=comments#comment-247062

 

Mick - I just got off the phone with tech support as I'm buying a new machine and wanted to see how to optimize it for X13.  The RTX-5000 card in the computer  that I purchased in September of 2020 is old generation stuff although it cost a lot more than most cards.  To get those reflections, you need the RTX-3080 or RTX-3090 as specified by Chief.  So, reflections behind glass are possible with the right card.  I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to hardware, so I use the folks at Puget Systems - they're fantastic!

 

I will check out Mark's file with the new system...  I'm already blown away by the realism and I don't even have the correct card yet...

 

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Just now, Kbird1 said:

Forgot yo ask if the 1st Image is an old style CPU RT or the New PBR-RT View Type Image ? 

 

Looks pretty good either way :) 

That was the new PBR in X13, however, real time ray-tracing isn't supported with my card.  Although the preferences within Chief says it is!

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13 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

The RTX-5000 card in the computer  that I purchased in September of 2020 is old generation stuff although it cost a lot more than most cards.  To get those reflections, you need the RTX-3080 or RTX-3090 as specified by Chief.  So, reflections behind glass are possible with the right card

 

Hmmmm , I wonder what is missing as it seems to have everything needed..... ie Shader 6.0 or above , RTX Cores etc.... I thought it was similar to the 2000 series of RTX Cards?

 

If you can share I can test before you buy if you'd like......     

 

Chief does not need a Quadro , you might want to look at a 3080 Ti unless you use Software other than Chief you need a Quadro for?

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/evga-geforce-rtx-3080-ti-ftw3-ultra/

 

M.

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1 hour ago, kwhitt said:

To get those reflections, you need the RTX-3080 or RTX-3090 as specified by Chief.  So, reflections behind glass are possible with the right card.

I grabbed a job that just came that I knew had a bath in it, added one mirror and took a really quick shot from inside the shower-both mirrors show reflections. This is on a 3070, zero effort put into this.

image.thumb.png.f7c598b06718e4022cac63dcaad46102.png

 

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4 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Hmmmm , I wonder what is missing as it seems to have everything needed..... ie Shader 6.0 or above , RTX Cores etc.... I thought it was similar to the 2000 series of RTX Cards?

 

If you can share I can test before you buy if you'd like......     

 

Chief does not need a Quadro , you might want to look at a 3080 Ti unless you use Software other than Chief you need a Quadro for?

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/evga-geforce-rtx-3080-ti-ftw3-ultra/

 

M.

Hey Mick - I also render using the Corona plugin for Cinema 4D (or at least I did a lot of it before I found Chief).  The computer purchased in September 2020 is a real workhorse for the CPU rendering engines.  I am not sure what it's missing, but it certainly doesn't work as I'm not getting the reflections behind glass.  Nathan from Chief tech support confirmed that I should be and I'm glad to see confirmation in Mark's post.  I would probably not spend the money on a new machine if reflections through glass weren't possible.  When I saw Chief's new engine required the RTX series, I was excited knowing I had an RTX 5000 card - thinking it was an even higher end card than the minimum spec.  Then I found out the RTX-5000 was a Quadro card and Chief requires Geoforce.  Sorta' misleading with the naming convention...

 

I was considering the RTX-3080, but as the 3090 was only $700 more I was convinced by the machine builder that I'd get much better performance from it.  Besides, the new generation Geoforce RTX series is so much cheaper than the Quadro RTX-5000 when I purchased last year.  I'll keep the other machine for CPU-based rendering though...

 

So that I understand, what card is it you have now?  I would appreciate you testing out the scene I posted about earlier.  As far as I know Chief has not published any benchmarks and I'd be curious how quickly you are able to render CAM01.  As usual, my files are huge (compressed at 209MB).  Here's the Dropbox link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjthruttitihn17/Master Bath Scene_07-12-21.zip?dl=0

 

Mark - If you've got the time, it would be nice seeing CAM04 from inside the shower with reflections in the mirror...

 

Thanks,

 

Kevin

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3 hours ago, MarkMc said:

I grabbed a job that just came that I knew had a bath in it, added one mirror and took a really quick shot from inside the shower-both mirrors show reflections. This is on a 3070, zero effort put into this.

image.thumb.png.f7c598b06718e4022cac63dcaad46102.png

 

Thanks Mark.  I appreciate you confirming that it can be done with the right card.  I've been wondering when we might have another Webinar about cabinetry.  I learned so much from the one last year.  Now that we have the capability for specifying reveals, it's completely changed the way I design cabinets.  The cabinet DBX has been my favorite implementation in X13.  I have to say it's an impressive release!  Kevin

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5 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Hmmmm , I wonder what is missing as it seems to have everything needed..... ie Shader 6.0 or above , RTX Cores etc.... I thought it was similar to the 2000 series of RTX Cards?

 

If you can share I can test before you buy if you'd like......     

 

Chief does not need a Quadro , you might want to look at a 3080 Ti unless you use Software other than Chief you need a Quadro for?

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/evga-geforce-rtx-3080-ti-ftw3-ultra/

 

M.

 

Sorry Mick.  I just read your signature line and see that you have the RTX 3080.  Yes, please run a test on the file I uploaded.  I included all texture maps too.  I am particularly interested in seeing CAM04 from inside the shower.  Thanks for taking the time!  Kevin

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Hi Kev. 

 

so the 5000 is missing critical Hardware?   I'd be asking Puget to swap it out , that is their Bo-boo , it a 3 yr old card - technology wise - and they if anyone should have known better ...... but I am sure they'll take order for another :)  

 

1. What driver are you using on the Quadro?  and 2.  Studio or Game Ready version?

 

I am on 471.22 HF GR Driver.

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was your plan started in X13?   as CAM04 opens fine but my 3080  boosts and never stops till I close the Camera , I have this issue with a Plan I brought forward from X11 or X12 too , it does not happen for example in the Plan Mark posted in his Relative GPU Thread which is a Chief X13 plan stripped down.

 

* same problem on Cam01 but I'd say 10 secs till okay ?  looks a bit better after 22-25..... as FireFlies are removed, there is weird bluish (reflection) on the top right Door Panel LH side that takes a while.

 

but I have bad news for you...... no reflection on 3080 either

 

image.thumb.png.ae4c0c550c9a6621282aae3e3b3a38cc.png  image.thumb.png.09b3df1f24cf8c6f010d7aff3e575280.png

 

 

 

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Set shower wall to invisible and all is well

 

image.thumb.png.e73f2d70d8f098f754ebfcd391b3bc49.png    

 

it's like a torture test :) , not sure Chief is built to use textures this size ?

 

image.thumb.png.4e98a898aea34c48bfcb56512a234ab5.png

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made a quick X13 plan ...and same issue in PBR-RT ...reflections work in Standard View though.

 

PBR-RT Shower Mirror Reflections Test..plan

 

PBR-RT            behind shower glass...............                                in front of shower glass.............

 

image.thumb.png.7fdcc6ca2540458d69a962920e1a2948.pngimage.thumb.png.9e136845a0fb164f1127cb064e95e913.png  

 

image.thumb.png.1783f3ccf53798d99b7c4e7aa813583b.pngimage.thumb.png.25d4593ad72e28d8972b086b28302eec.png 

 

 

In an empty room ( shower wall and mirror removed ) GPU going full bore in PBR-RT  with 4 drywall walls in a 8' x 12' room .......

 

keep your money in your Wallet ..... for now......

 

image.thumb.png.8406b9d814e9202f85cc898e9f40f11d.png

 

STD VIEW

image.png

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@Kbird1 and @kwhitt Suggest you both read this:

Simple solution, change your Shower Glass to a General Material classification.
Kbird, the under sampled(aliased) areas of an under-lit room will always occur with an RT type rendering engine for the multiple reasons I list in that thread. There are plenty of simple solutions to that.

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44 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

Simple solution, change your Shower Glass to a General Material classification.

 

There are a few Solutions and that works too, for any particular View , I was just showing I don't think it is a hardware Issue as Tech Support said as my 3080 has the same issue.

 

image.thumb.png.e2175f9101ae9819f101c9ea50741b5e.png

 

 

I have read your post previously , I just don't think the End User should need to find all these work-arounds, Game Developers with these Issues eg Cyberpunk 2077 get Lawsuits Filed against them as the Game doesn't work as advertised.....OOB

 

I did discover playing around tonight finally that not having Cap Live Samples ON, on PBR-RT Technique Tab,  seems to be the Issue with the (my) GPU going to max boost and Staying there..... ( Is already enabled in Nashville plan I tried yest. )   and dropping the Daylight Backdrop intensity to 500  even though Sun is already on 500 helped with the Light Bleed ( and adding a few Recessed Cans helped to I guess too), Thx, 

 

image.thumb.png.475a0fbaa9a50f68b603fab12ab4a7bb.png

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26 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I just don't think the End User should need to find all these work-arounds

Just to note this is a generic response , not subjective to you. Hoping more people find this.

Regarding the quote, I guess therein lie the difference, I don't see these as workarounds at all. The nature of this type of raytrace, which I try to explain in that post, will always have techniques that need be implemented. There is simply no way you can have a scene that will look as intended in both standard and raytrace views, its an impossibility due to the nature of the rendering engine. All of these same theories in realtime raytrace have been around for quite sometime. The Thea render manual for version 1.5 dating back like 7 years I think, goes through all of the reasons that an under-sampled, under or overexposed lighting condition will cause such a problem. I've done support on quite a few scenes now and haven't run into anything that couldn't be fixed with a few tweaks and settings. 
We have a new tool that can garner fantastic results with a skilled technician. This requires a skillset and a level of understanding that far surpass that needed for standard PBR. . I didn't need to play around for very long to work through similar issues because I have a wealth of understanding in such techniques. Speaking from my experience, this is simply the nature of the beast. I'm sure Chief has an overwhelming number of support calls while people try and figure rt out. The greatest takeaway from this, is that our community is learning the skills to sufficiently use such a rendering engine which can carry over in them being able to pick up other such rendering software's as we get closer to the industry standard. Just wait til we get a denoiser and selection based image sampler amongst 100's more complex rendering techniques and features.

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8 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Set shower wall to invisible and all is well

 

image.thumb.png.e73f2d70d8f098f754ebfcd391b3bc49.png    

 

it's like a torture test :) , not sure Chief is built to use textures this size ?

 

image.thumb.png.4e98a898aea34c48bfcb56512a234ab5.png

 

Good morning, Mick.  I did a test on the RTX5000 with wall set to invisible and it works - see attached!  It also seems that the refraction of the glass is intact (see area near shower door hinges).  I believe the blue area you highlight on the pocket door is a reflection of the sky from glass block windows.  

 

I purchased the RTX-5000 card in September of 2020 before X13 came out.  At the time I had no intention of using Chief for photorealistic work, so had the machine optimized for Corona Renderer within Cinema 4D.  

 

 

Untitled 1.jpg

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8 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

made a quick X13 plan ...and same issue in PBR-RT ...reflections work in Standard View though.

 

PBR-RT Shower Mirror Reflections Test..plan 5.27 MB · 0 downloads

 

PBR-RT            behind shower glass...............                                in front of shower glass.............

 

image.thumb.png.7fdcc6ca2540458d69a962920e1a2948.pngimage.thumb.png.9e136845a0fb164f1127cb064e95e913.png  

 

image.thumb.png.1783f3ccf53798d99b7c4e7aa813583b.pngimage.thumb.png.25d4593ad72e28d8972b086b28302eec.png 

 

 

In an empty room ( shower wall and mirror removed ) GPU going full bore in PBR-RT  with 4 drywall walls in a 8' x 12' room .......

 

keep your money in your Wallet ..... for now......

 

image.thumb.png.8406b9d814e9202f85cc898e9f40f11d.png

 

STD VIEW

image.png

 

Mick - I just tested your file and I can't get it to work either.  I think the only reason the invisible tick worked on my bathroom scene is that I have shower channel around the perimeter.  The glass is not there and only appears to be as it's surrounded.  The shower door hinges were added manually as they weren't oriented correctly to be added in the door DBX (notice the door handle is missing).  So, it appears that reflections behind glass do not work with the RTX3080 either.  I will call tech support again today as Nathan told me it was possible with the right graphics card.  This is disappointing.  

 

@Renerabbitt - I watched your guest appearance on Dan Bauman's 3rd episode of What's New in X13 - very helpful.  You do mention this problem with the glass door cabinets in your scene example; however, switching to a general material with transparency eliminates all refraction which is key to photorealism in glass.  I don't agree that this workaround should be accepted as "the nature of the beast" as there are plenty of real-time rendering engines that deal with refraction correctly (in fact all of them do of which I am aware).  I imagine Chief will eventually solve this problem and your "fix" is the best we can do for now...  The refraction issue aside, it's still a rather robust rendering engine and the results are impressive.

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@MarkMc - Mark - is the glass a general material as Rene suggested or a real glass material with refraction?  Would you mind posting the scene file, so that I can test?  If what you're saying is right, then reflections do occur behind glass.  I'd really like to come to a conclusion today before I drop thousands on a new machine.

 

@Kbird1 - Mick - If Mark will provide the scene file, would you mind trying it out on your RTX3080?  I'll make a similar attempt with the RTX5000 card I have now.  I tried the scene file you posted and couldn't get it to work properly either.

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@Kbird1

 

More testing... 

 

It's the mirror material that's the problem.  When I change it to a shiny metal with the attached settings, it works fine on my RTX500 even through physical glass.  Of course, bloom doesn't show through glass, but that is a limitation of most render engines.  Attached is the scene file.  Would you mind running it on your RTX3080?  Thanks, Kevin

Mirror as Shiny Metal.jpg

test room_07-13-21.jpg

Reflections Behind Glass.plan

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@Kbird1 - That still doesn't explain the problem with CAM07 attached.  The metal on the handshower does not reflect when viewed through glass.  It may, again, be a material problem and can be resolved using the Shiny Metal with higher roughness.  I'll test that later after I've done some real work.  The door casings and cabinet fronts appear to have had reflection from the very beginning as they are only specular highlights (not true reflections).  It's starting to appear as though my RTX5000 card is quite capable after all.

CAM07.jpg

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Glass used in image I posted is standard tempered glass with color changed and an almost OOB rendering technique- other than Sun turned down, day time back ground turned down, cap live samples (you musta been asleep for that one Mick). Not also that is an OOB glass wall and glass door-(see below)

Simply turning off refraction in rendering technique works with what you have now. screenshot at 30 seconds.

image.thumb.png.1b2e6c2e7a859ef8b7ed7f30132d6f02.png

 

Things in your plan that may or may not contribute to the problem

  1. Extra materials defined in both the wall and the door image.thumb.png.57bb6f125c67dca5fd59fb31a12d763d.pngimage.thumb.png.2ce05787e43e1bbd804f3790b572a785.png
  2. I avoid using railing walls for showers in general. I prefer to start with a glass wall, change to pony wall and adjust height
  3. the sides of the shower enclosure don't go to the ceiling allowing light to come into the area creating reflections on the inside of the glass. This can be challenging to address in the design as it is-that's one for Rene
  4. you have a interior fixture symbol sitting on the top of the entire enclosure. This can alter how light is handled. As it is now your camera is not only inside a room but inside a symbol.
  5. There is something weird about your mirrors. The materials for that are odd and perspective overview shows them partly set inside the fixture they are in. image.thumb.png.708c6e7b558ab5237fbdfb18a1b15960.pngimage.thumb.png.90b70a8e143f763a6bf988ab4324ed09.png

IMO this is NOT a Chief problem. 

I believe the biggest issues are 4 and 5. Now I do have one plan that I've lots of light leaks on intriors form but that model has horrible wall definitions and gaps where the room meets the walls, it's just that kind of structure. The leaks only appear at the gaps though, none of the issues Mick is showing once settings and model are goo. (I ended up floating extra roofs over it for interior shots)

 

I would add that something, textures or symbols are as Mick points out wreaking havoc. For the render to release the GPU takes an enormous amount of time. Do NOT attempt to export this image. I tested that and forced chief to close after 20 minutes. You would be better off with a CPU RT, maybe. I've tested plans with an 150 custom symbols, dozens of custom textures and almost a hundred lights that did not take anywhere near the amount of time this takes to resolve. I don't think I've had anything over 6 or 7 minutes, most export image between 30 seconds and 2 minutes.

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1 minute ago, kwhitt said:

The metal on the handshower does not reflect when viewed through glass.  It may, again, be a material problem and can be resolved using the Shiny Metal with higher roughness

See number 4 above- that is inside a symbol.

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