PMMully

Forced to to interior versus exterior doors?

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In this test plan, I am enclosing a porch. I am using standard exterior walls to enclose the structure and put SGD in it. That seems to work fine except the one wall sees to force me to an interior SGD definition versus an exterior (even will sill clicked on, I get no sill. So the core question is why can I not make the second SGD act like the other SGD. It seems that CA is forcing it to an interior when in fact it is exterior.

 

I have seen this in other plans as well, like kitchens, where I draw interior walls and when I place a door in them, they get delegated as exterior automagically. This makes sense, but I want to override the default door in these cases.

porchenclosure.plan

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If you want both of your Sliding Glass Doors to have sills you need to somehow have a transition between an interior room type and an exterior room type.  Define the open Porch as interior and it should work fine for you unless the enclosed Porch is heated then it could be interior causing your double door to not have a sill.  It is not really all that clear in the documentation that I have been able to find so it is easy to get tripped up on.

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Well, that worked. But of course, it creates other issues. They may be simple ones, but the floor now has to be unfinished, molding removed, etc. I just wish I could tell CA to leave me alone at times :-)

 

What is the "flag" that marks a room as interior or exterior? I do not see anything in the room type defaults.

 

I know I have some funky wall transitions. I am working on that. I know I can align on surfaces, centers, etc. But I just seem to be missing some fine points, or maybe I just can't remember them fast enough :-)

 

But life for me here in FL is a mixture of many wall types and hence thicknesses. I am working on mastering it because it is the number one area that slows me down. I have CBU walls that have stucco+block+insulation+furring+DW (all new construction), just stucco+block+furring+DW (older construction), stucco+block+stucco, stucco+block, and even just block. I have various frame wall thicknesses of stucco/lath+tyvek+sheathing+frame/insulation+furring/drywall, with brick veneer and or Hardie. 

 

All of these walls must meet regularly. A garage is common for interior sheets for the frame, some CBU with insulation, and some CBU with just struck block or think stucco skim coat. Any best practices would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

porchenclosure.plan

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7 hours ago, PMMully said:

Well, that worked. But of course, it creates other issues. They may be simple ones, but the floor now has to be unfinished, molding removed, etc. I just wish I could tell CA to leave me alone at times :-)

 

What is the "flag" that marks a room as interior or exterior? I do not see anything in the room type defaults.

 

I think the Key is how the room is associated with it's "Function" that is set in Defaults.  I guess the flag is how a door reacts to the way the room is defined.  It is not just in Florida you have these issues so don't feel left out or alone.  I ran into an unexpected related issue on my last project where a window would generate a sill but a pass through would not where a passthrough in a different wall of the same room would generate a sill. I sent that one in but when you run into an issue that makes no sense let chief know about it and eventually if enough people do that it will get fixed.

 

So I guess your flag is if sills generate the way you are expecting them to.  I have not made an official list but Balcony, Court, Deck, Garage, and Porch behave as "Exterior Rooms" but I would need to check as I have not taken the time to make duplicates of them all to add to my Rooms list but that could certainly be done if you regularly have issues with connected rooms.

 

If you have situations where walls will absolutely not connect with the available tools then CA needs to hear about that as well.

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39 minutes ago, Chopsaw said:

 

I think the Key is how the room is associated with it's "Function" that is set in Defaults.  I guess the flag is how a door reacts to the way the room is defined.  It is not just in Florida you have these issues so don't feel left out or alone.  I ran into an unexpected related issue on my last project where a window would generate a sill but a pass through would not where a passthrough in a different wall of the same room would generate a sill. I sent that one in but when you run into an issue that makes no sense let chief know about it and eventually if enough people do that it will get fixed.

 

So I guess your flag is if sills generate the way you are expecting them to.  I have not made an official list but Balcony, Court, Deck, Garage, and Porch behave as "Exterior Rooms" but I would need to check as I have not taken the time to make duplicates of them all to add to my Rooms list but that could certainly be done if you regularly have issues with connected rooms.

 

If you have situations where walls will absolutely not connect with the available tools then CA needs to hear about that as well.

 

That makes sense. It seems CA missed something in the meta-model. The ability to define a room function is key, just like a room type. Without that, we are at the mercy of of what appears to be hard-coded logic regarding function. At least I have not found a way to control "function". I imagine playing around with the various room functions, like "unspecified", you might get what you want.

 

In my case, I had two exterior rooms backed up to one another as porches, so it made no sense whatsoever.

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Just now, PMMully said:

That makes sense. It seems CA missed something in the meta-model. The ability to define a room function is key, just like a room type. Without that, we are at the mercy of of what appears to be hard-coded logic regarding function. At least I have not found a way to control "function".

 

Plan Defaults :

image.thumb.png.7d7322422c21692a7d0e2f90f648a62b.png

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Understood. But if behaviors of  things like doors and windows, floor, etc are tied to room types and then function. It would be great to be able to define our own room functions as well as room types. I was referring to creating our own room functions to associate with room types. Unless that dropdown has a "add new" option.

 

I took your suggestion and made the second porch an interior room, then it worked. Prior to that, both room types/functions were porch. A very odd thing to have to do.

 

I looked in the reference guide and.its not clear what room function controls versus room type. Room types make perfect sense. Room function, really what is it?

 

 

 

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Yes it is all a bit odd to me as well but if you frequently design with a porch attached to a "Seasonal" room as we also do here for lots of situations, you could define a Porch 2 or Porch - Interior that would be set up in you custom room types using a interior room function and all the proper structure and details.  Actually we do more decks than porches but the same problems occur with that.

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1 hour ago, Chopsaw said:

Yes it is all a bit odd to me as well but if you frequently design with a porch attached to a "Seasonal" room as we also do here for lots of situations, you could define a Porch 2 or Porch - Interior that would be set up in you custom room types using a interior room function and all the proper structure and details.  Actually we do more decks than porches but the same problems occur with that.

Makes sense. In my case, just make it look like a porch, or "exterior room". Exterior rooms in FL come under building code requirements for AC/electrical, etc. I will try the "unspecified" type. In either case, no big deal once you understand it.  Just wish one did not have to spend time figuring these nuances out. But hey, I have yet to find anything I can not do (especially since I have honed my polyline skills).  

 

 

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Have a look in the help file for "Room Types and Functions" - there is a lot of detailed information.

Just as easy for me to copy paste here.

 

Room Types and Functions

Room Types are used to quickly apply useful structural, functional, and appearance properties to different kinds of rooms. For example, a room assigned the “Garage” Room Type will receive concrete curbs under its walls when the Foundation is built, while a “Kitchen” will get GFCI Outlets when the Auto Place Outlet tool is used.

When a room is first created by enclosing an area with walls, it is assigned a generic room type of “Unspecified.” Once a room is created, though, it can be assigned a Room Type in the Room Specification dialog. See General Panel.

A selection of pre-defined Room Types is available for use; they are, however, editable, and you can create your own, as well. See Room Type Defaults.

Room Type Defaults

Each Room Type is composed of two sets of characteristics: those set by the program, and those that are directly editable.

Characteristics set by the program are grouped together based on typical requirements for different types of rooms. This non-editable set of properties is referred to as Room Functions.

Characteristics of a Room Type that can be modified include the default room Name, whether it is included in the Living Area and Conditioned Area, and the floor structure, finish, and deck supports. A default Function can also be specified. See Room Type Defaults.

When you specify that a room be a certain Room Type, all of the characteristics associated with that Room Type are assigned to the room, overriding existing settings. After you specify a Room Type, though, various settings can be customized.

Room Functions

A room Function is a set of non-editable characteristics that are typical of a certain type of room.

There are three broad categories of room Functions: Interior, Exterior and Hybrid.

Interior - Living, Dining, Family, Kitchen, Nook, Bath, Master Bath, Master Bedrm, Bedroom, Study, Office, Entry, Hall, Closet, Dressing, Storage, Laundry, Utility and Unspecified.

Exterior - Court, Deck, Balcony.

Hybrid - Open Below, Garage, Slab, Porch, Attic.

Effects of Room Functions

Chief Architect applies specific properties to rooms depending on the assigned Room Function.

Living and Conditioned Areas

All interior type rooms are included in Living Area calculations by default; exterior and hybrid type rooms are not.

• With the exception of Unspecified rooms, all interior type rooms are included in Conditioned Area calculations by default. Open Below rooms are also included; however, exterior and other hybrid type rooms are not. See Conditioned Area Totals.

Ceilings and Roofs

• Interior rooms have a ceiling and roof above them.

• Exterior rooms are assumed to be open to the outside and do not generate a roof above them.

• Attic rooms do not receive a ceiling and are ignored by the program’s automatic roof generator.

• Garage, Slabs, and Porches are treated like exterior rooms in all cases except that they generate a ceiling and a roof above them by default.

Floors and Foundations

• A room’s default floor structure and finish definitions are determined by its Room Type. See Room Type Defaults.

• Open Below is a unique type of interior room that has no floor platform. Open Below rooms can be used for defining stairwell openings.

• Garages have a foundation under them as defined by the Foundation Defaults dialog with a concrete slab at the top of stem wall or grade beam.

• The floor in Garage and Slab rooms display in 3D on Floor 0, not the first floor. See Garages.

• Defining a room as Slab causes the floor platform thickness to equal the slab thickness value in the Foundation Defaults dialog.

• Deck rooms do not generate foundations. See Decks.

Doors and Windows

• A window placed in a wall between an exterior room and an interior room always faces out toward the exterior.

• Doors placed between interior and exterior type rooms inherit their settings from the Exterior Defaults for the door tool, if available; they display threshold lines and are considered Exterior. See Interior vs Exterior Doors.

• Doors placed between interior type rooms do not display thresholds and are considered Interior.

• Open Below rooms are treated as interior rooms for window and door placement.

Electrical

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7 hours ago, glennw said:

Have a look in the help file for "Room Types and Functions" - there is a lot of detailed information.

Just as easy for me to copy paste here.

 

Room Types and Functions

Room Types are used to quickly apply useful structural, functional, and appearance properties to different kinds of rooms. For example, a room assigned the “Garage” Room Type will receive concrete curbs under its walls when the Foundation is built, while a “Kitchen” will get GFCI Outlets when the Auto Place Outlet tool is used.

When a room is first created by enclosing an area with walls, it is assigned a generic room type of “Unspecified.” Once a room is created, though, it can be assigned a Room Type in the Room Specification dialog. See General Panel.

A selection of pre-defined Room Types is available for use; they are, however, editable, and you can create your own, as well. See Room Type Defaults.

Room Type Defaults

Each Room Type is composed of two sets of characteristics: those set by the program, and those that are directly editable.

Characteristics set by the program are grouped together based on typical requirements for different types of rooms. This non-editable set of properties is referred to as Room Functions.

Characteristics of a Room Type that can be modified include the default room Name, whether it is included in the Living Area and Conditioned Area, and the floor structure, finish, and deck supports. A default Function can also be specified. See Room Type Defaults.

When you specify that a room be a certain Room Type, all of the characteristics associated with that Room Type are assigned to the room, overriding existing settings. After you specify a Room Type, though, various settings can be customized.

Room Functions

A room Function is a set of non-editable characteristics that are typical of a certain type of room.

There are three broad categories of room Functions: Interior, Exterior and Hybrid.

Interior - Living, Dining, Family, Kitchen, Nook, Bath, Master Bath, Master Bedrm, Bedroom, Study, Office, Entry, Hall, Closet, Dressing, Storage, Laundry, Utility and Unspecified.

Exterior - Court, Deck, Balcony.

Hybrid - Open Below, Garage, Slab, Porch, Attic.

Effects of Room Functions

Chief Architect applies specific properties to rooms depending on the assigned Room Function.

Living and Conditioned Areas

All interior type rooms are included in Living Area calculations by default; exterior and hybrid type rooms are not.

• With the exception of Unspecified rooms, all interior type rooms are included in Conditioned Area calculations by default. Open Below rooms are also included; however, exterior and other hybrid type rooms are not. See Conditioned Area Totals.

Ceilings and Roofs

• Interior rooms have a ceiling and roof above them.

• Exterior rooms are assumed to be open to the outside and do not generate a roof above them.

• Attic rooms do not receive a ceiling and are ignored by the program’s automatic roof generator.

• Garage, Slabs, and Porches are treated like exterior rooms in all cases except that they generate a ceiling and a roof above them by default.

Floors and Foundations

• A room’s default floor structure and finish definitions are determined by its Room Type. See Room Type Defaults.

• Open Below is a unique type of interior room that has no floor platform. Open Below rooms can be used for defining stairwell openings.

• Garages have a foundation under them as defined by the Foundation Defaults dialog with a concrete slab at the top of stem wall or grade beam.

• The floor in Garage and Slab rooms display in 3D on Floor 0, not the first floor. See Garages.

• Defining a room as Slab causes the floor platform thickness to equal the slab thickness value in the Foundation Defaults dialog.

• Deck rooms do not generate foundations. See Decks.

Doors and Windows

• A window placed in a wall between an exterior room and an interior room always faces out toward the exterior.

• Doors placed between interior and exterior type rooms inherit their settings from the Exterior Defaults for the door tool, if available; they display threshold lines and are considered Exterior. See Interior vs Exterior Doors.

• Doors placed between interior type rooms do not display thresholds and are considered Interior.

• Open Below rooms are treated as interior rooms for window and door placement.

Electrical

 

Thank you for pointing this out regarding room function. I searched on the word function and I did not see this, I must have misspelled it on the search because as you have pointed out the information is there with no lack of detail. It all makes sense.

 

A few observations in this case:

 

I had two porch room/function types next to one another, and for the joining wall between them, it behaved as if it were two interior rooms regarding the door placement per the "rules". I imagine it was because the joining wall in question was not on the perimeter of the entire structure so it did not compensate for that. A search of the "interior vs exterior doors" supports this as well. The core problem was the sill did not show up even though it was checked. So to outsmart it, I defined one porch as an interior room as suggested above. That works, but then you have to undo all the other "rules" for that room/function type back to a porch.

 

From what I can tell, if you have an interior door, which is auto-assigned by the fact that it is internal to exterior walls or not, the "Sill" attribute has no bearing when considered an interior door. I tested this even on an exterior wall placed with four exterior walls. I simply can not get the sill to show up. The simple fix from the CA side is "honor the sill attribute" regardless of the auto-assigned wall-type and wall-location placement. Then the room type/function would work just fine.

 

I think I learned that when doing monolithic slabs, which is the norm here in FL.... defining all porches as a garage room type and just change the label, or maybe the room function as well, to the porch as they are all hybrid room functions. That way, I get the benefit of the automagically generated foundation and floor drop-downs.  This alone might be worth the price of admission for the CA episode :-)

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On 4/6/2021 at 9:25 PM, PMMully said:

In this test plan, I am enclosing a porch.

 

I drew a Room Divider inside the porch on the left, moved it to 1" from the common wall, called the room Slab and turned off Invisible Walls layer. I left the Room Name visible so you could see where it is

 

Quick and easy, but it does throw off the automatic porch dimensions by 1"

 

1689731643_ScreenShot2021-04-08at9_33_40AM.thumb.png.f7532f1e0fc615a31f9a448aef8e2c7b.png

 

 

CBporchenclosure.plan

 

 

 

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Thanks.

 

I think I may have perfected the FL Porch Room Type. These rooms drop like a garage. Those under normal house truss have the same foundations as the test of the house.  So now I specify them as this new room type that has the garage function, but different label. Seems to do the trick. In this plan I had two garages side by side. The SGD still does not function correctly regarding the sill height. But that is fixed by adjusting the sill height. It all works just peachy and generates the right foundation. This is in contrast to the porch room that also needs to drop but you need to tweak the ceiling and SWT settings. Either way works, but the garage method for mono slabs sems to be the fastest.

 

But the real trick is the dimensions to sill height, it fixes it all up.

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12 hours ago, PMMully said:

From what I can tell, if you have an interior door, which is auto-assigned by the fact that it is internal to exterior walls or not, the "Sill" attribute has no bearing when considered an interior door.

I think that you can have an interior door with a sill.

It's just that the sill is buried in the floor and you can't see it.

Lift the bottom of the door up and the sill will be revealed.

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1 minute ago, glennw said:

I think that you can have an interior door with a sill.

It's just that the sill is buried in the floor and you can't see it.

Lift the bottom of the door up and the sill will be revealed.

Exactly the case.

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12 hours ago, PMMully said:

I simply can not get the sill to show up.

It works OK for me.

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 11.00.36 am.jpg

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Just now, glennw said:

It works OK for me.

 

Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 11.00.36 am.jpg

In what looks to be an exterior wall, it always works. The issue was when I had a porch in an as-built, then enclosed some of the porch, the second exterior wall was not on the perimeter is when the issue came up.

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