Wall Materials Change Framing

[SpeleoWorm]

I have created a number of different wall types to show proper dimensions (i.e. when one side of the wall is 5/8" Type X and the other side is 1/2" drywall) as well as to calculate the correct material counts and to show the proper information in the schedules.  Unfortunately doing that seems to have a down side...it changes the framing as if they were separate walls instead of the same wall with different materials on them.  I have seen the following side effects (colors refer to screenshots below):

 

1. (Green Arrow) In unfinished rooms such as an attic storage space which only has a subfloor but no drywall, the walls get pushed up into the rafters by what appears to be 3".
2. (Red Arrows) The floor joists and top/bottom plates are cut in the middle when they should be continuous pieces of wood.  In addition, you can see that the walls which are produced are not boxed at the end...the top & bottom plates stick out at the end.
3. (Purple Arrow) Parts of the gable wall are not created.  In this case you could argue that it is not needed, but if a builder makes a wall he is not going to leave a hole in it.
4. (Blue Arrows) An extra stud is added to a room that has no drywall, and therefore doesn't need nailer studs.  In addition, it looks like the other stud needed as a nailer for the finished room in the middle is missing from the plan view of the framing (see 2nd screenshot).

 

Am I doing this all wrong (creating separate wall types), or is there a way to use them and fix (any of) the issues I mentioned?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

PS - I am a little surprised that the wall finish is not part of the room settings (like the floor & ceiling already are)...that would allow you to have continuous walls and still have different materials in each room (i.e. greenboard in the bath, 5/8" type X in a garage, unfinished in an attic, etc.

 

  

Example of Wall Issue.plan

[Kbird1]

I would say 

1.) is a glitch in the Attic Room probably and should likely be Reported , but I'd just make it a Storage Room and remove the flooring and ceiling if needed.

2.) is because you have 3 different walls and Chief puts the edge lines around each in Vector Views , so you see the Walltype breaks.

3.) Try the Balloon through ceiling setting on the Structure Tab   ( I am thinking the End walls in the Real world would likely be framed this way anyway)

4.) did you rebuild all the Framing after making/applying the new WallTypes ?  ......and I wouldn't expect to Chief to get the Framing 100% right every time...

 

M.

[rgardner]

26 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I would say 

1.) is a glitch in the Attic Room probably and should likely be Reported , but I'd just make it a Storage Room and remove the flooring and ceiling if needed.

2.) is because you have 3 different walls and Chief puts the edge lines around each in Vector Views , so you see the Walltype breaks.

3.) Try the Balloon through ceiling setting on the Structure Tab   ( I am thinking the End walls in the Real world would likely be framed this way anyway)

4.) did you rebuild all the Framing after making/applying the new WallTypes ?  ......and I wouldn't expect to Chief to get the Framing 100% right every time...

 

M.

I agree with What Mick is saying above.

 

One thought though is that 1.) may not be a glitch rather you may have a ceiling surface for that "room" defined in which case it shares the same space?  Just a thought, hard to tell without the plan file.

[SpeleoWorm]

Thanks Mick & Ryan!

1. Changing it to "Storage" and removing the ceiling, ceiling finish and floor finish worked like a charm.  I tried "Unfinished" as well, but it appears to have the same issue as "Attic".  I will need to open a ticket with support.
2. I don't think it is just lines...I can select each piece of framing and they show up in the framing schedule (see screenshots below).
3. Thanks, balloon through ceiling worked, and I agree...that is how it would be framed.
4. Yes, I rebuilt the framing.  This appears to be a bug in that particular view since it shows up in the other view and on the schedule.  I guess I will need to report that to support as well.

  

 

 

28 minutes ago, rgardner said:

I agree with What Mick is saying above.

 

One thought though is that 1.) may not be a glitch rather you may have a ceiling surface for that "room" defined in which case it shares the same space?  Just a thought, hard to tell without the plan file.

 

Ryan, Mick was correct...it is an issue with the "Attic" room type (also the "Unfinished" room type).  You can change the other room types to match the settings of the attic room type and they will not have the issue.  I created the plan file from scratch to ensure that it wasn't something in my existing building, and no matter what you do it looks that way when the room type is set to attic or unfinished, and not when you use anything else.

 

[Kbird1]

1.)  not sure what the specific situation is there but making it a Storage Room may alter how Chief assigns Insulation to the Space and thus effect the ML ( conditioned vs not )

2.) yes they are 3 separate walls so Chief will frame them that Way , you'd have to delete some ( auto framing off ) and then extend the plates full length manually if needed however would not ALL 3 walls be Balloon Framed hence those Top plates would be eliminated.

3.) Ok refer to 2.)

4.) (Blue Arrow or pic just above) Try the horizontal frame through option in the **Wall FRAMING Options perhaps , I can't tell you why it's doing that...

 

M.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Kbird1
** it's a Wall Framing Option vs in Wall Definition

[rgardner]

37 minutes ago, SpeleoWorm said:

Thanks Mick & Ryan!

1. Changing it to "Storage" and removing the ceiling, ceiling finish and floor finish worked like a charm.  I tried "Unfinished" as well, but it appears to have the same issue as "Attic".  I will need to open a ticket with support.
2. I don't think it is just lines...I can select each piece of framing and they show up in the framing schedule (see screenshots below).
3. Thanks, balloon through ceiling worked, and I agree...that is how it would be framed.
4. Yes, I rebuilt the framing.  This appears to be a bug in that particular view since it shows up in the other view and on the schedule.  I guess I will need to report that to support as well.

  

 

 

 

Ryan, Mick was correct...it is an issue with the "Attic" room type (also the "Unfinished" room type).  You can change the other room types to match the settings of the attic room type and they will not have the issue.  I created the plan file from scratch to ensure that it wasn't something in my existing building, and no matter what you do it looks that way when the room type is set to attic or unfinished, and not when you use anything else.

 

Still looks like that wall is stopping about 3.5” below the roof which the program sees as a ceiling plane as well.  Could be even if you have that ceiling definition clicked off you need to delete it.  But again it’s impossible to say without seeing the plan file for sure.  If you don’t want to upload that then I would send it to tech department to see if it’s a glitch.

[SpeleoWorm]

2 minutes ago, rgardner said:

Still looks like that wall is stopping about 3.5” below the roof which the program sees as a ceiling plane as well.  Could be even if you have that ceiling definition clicked off you need to delete it.  But again it’s impossible to say without seeing the plan file for sure.  If you don’t want to upload that then I would send it to tech department to see if it’s a glitch.

 

The plan file is attached to the bottom of the 1st post.

[SpeleoWorm]

4 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

1.)  not sure what the specific situation is there but making it a Storage Room may alter how Chief assigns Insulation to the Space and thus effect the ML ( conditioned vs not )

 

I agree that "Storage" is not the ideal solution, I have already created a trouble ticket for this issue with support.

 

6 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

2.) yes they are 3 separate walls so Chief will frame them that Wall , you'd have to delete some ( auto framing off ) and then extend the plates full length manually if needed however would not ALL 3 walls be Balloon Framed hence those Top plates would be eliminated.

 

Balloon framing all three walls fixes the void that I mentioned, but not the top/bottom plates or the floor joist...they are still split up into multiple smaller pieces (see below).

 

 

8 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

4.) (Blue Arrow or pic just above) Try the horizontal frame through option in the wall definition perhaps , I can't tell you why it's doing that...

 

I am not sure which option you are referring to...here is what I see:

 

[Kbird1]

23 minutes ago, SpeleoWorm said:

Balloon framing all three walls fixes the void that I mentioned, but not the top/bottom plates or the floor joist...they are still split up into multiple smaller pieces (see below).

 

true Balloon will not change the 3 Walls part, try deleting the smaller pieces and make the others longer by dragging....

 

23 minutes ago, SpeleoWorm said:

horizontal frame through option

 

Sorry Typo ....... it is a Wall FRAMING Option , not in the Wall's Definition ...will update that.....

 

 

M.

[SpeleoWorm]

6 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Sorry Typo ....... it is a Wall FRAMING Option , not in the Wall's Definition ...will update that.....

 

Thanks!  I tried that option but it only applies to angled walls.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 hours ago, SpeleoWorm said:

PS - I am a little surprised that the wall finish is not part of the room settings (like the floor & ceiling already are)...that would allow you to have continuous walls and still have different materials in each room (i.e. greenboard in the bath, 5/8" type X in a garage, unfinished in an attic, etc.

Actually, you can do those things.  The best method will depend on your end goal, on how dimensionally and visually accurate you need the model to be, and on whether or not you’ll be using the Materials List, but here are a few tools K would recommend you look at.  
 

-Wall Material Regions 

-Wall Coverings

-Room Wall Material Settings

-The Material Painter

 

The last 2 are typically inferior to changing the Wall Type, BUT, they do allow for some of the functionality you’re after.  

[SpeleoWorm]

3 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Actually, you can do those things.  The best method will depend on your end goal, on how dimensionally and visually accurate you need the model to be, and on whether or not you’ll be using the Materials List, but here are a few tools K would recommend you look at.  
 

-Wall Material Regions 

-Wall Coverings

-Room Wall Material Settings

-The Material Painter

 

The last 2 are typically inferior to changing the Wall Type, BUT, they do allow for some of the functionality you’re after.

 

Interesting solution Michael, thank you!  It is funny how the word "Material" is used to mean different things in the app.  I used the word "Finish" because that is what I see in the Room Specification dialog (Structure tab) where you can define the different layers of "Materials" that make up the floor and ceiling finish structure (very similar to the Wall Type Definition layers).  I think of a material as a color/pattern and a (structural/finish) layer as something that has a thickness and other properties (including a material).  If you look at the Materials tab of a Room Specification dialog there is no concept of layers or thickness, but based on your suggestion I found that Floor & Wall Material Regions act more like the finish layers and they do have both layers and thickness.  And then there is the Materials List which is yet another meaning of that same word, but it is neither a color or a layer...it is all of the individual components that make up the house.  Chief Architect might want to clean up their wording here to make it clearer (for example, they could rename "Floor/Wall Material Regions" to "Floor/Wall Finish Layer Regions" and "Materials List" to "Supplies List").  They could also consider adding Wall Finish Layers to the existing Floor & Ceiling Finish Layers of the Room Specification dialog to make it easier to use, and provide a way to define groups of layers for reuse.

 

That said, I had a quick look at each of your suggestions and found the following:

• Wall Material Regions - These appear to solve my problem, although it would be very time consuming to define them manually for each and every wall in the building, especially since you have to be in a 3D camera view to do it, and there are no predefined wall layer types to choose from.  In this case I would basically have one wall type which has my most common wall finish layer (i.e. 1/2" drywall) and then I would need to go through each special room (kitchen, baths, garage, attic, multi-family separation wall, etc.) and manually pick the layers for each wall in those rooms.  It doesn't sound like fun, but it might work!
• Wall Coverings - These are similar to the "Materials" tab and are not really layers with a thickness, insulation, etc., so I don't think that they would help because the room dimensions would be off and they are just covering up the 1/2" drywall defined in the wall layers.  That said, these could be useful if you wanted to define the base wall material as primer paint, and then you could "cover" it with real paint, only if that produced two items in the Materials List.
• Room Wall Material Settings - I assume you mean the "Walls" component in the "Materials" tab of the "Room Specification" dialog?  If so, this is again lacking the other layer properties that I need to define structural elements such as 5/8" Type X drywall and 1/2" Greenboard in 4' x 8' sheets.
• The Material Painter - Same issue, no layers/thickness.

I am going to try using the Wall Material Regions to see if I can clean up my current drawing, but I can't imagine using that approach long term since it will be very tedious, time consuming, and unmanageable.  Thanks for the idea!

[SpeleoWorm]

FYI, I tried using the Wall Material Region tool as well as the Delete Surface tool...neither are perfect, but they help.

 

• Wall Material Region - This tool is good for changing the material layers of an existing wall/floor (why not ceiling?), but it is a bit buggy (see points below).  I see in this video that you can save the layers for reuse as a symbol, but it is too difficult to draw all of the polylines exactly how you want them if you are trying to cover the entire wall/floor surface (easier to click on the object and have the whole thing selected).  So, this is a bit time consuming as you have to set the layers each time, but you can set your defaults for the type of layers you are working on to save you from having to set it manually on every wall.
  • Bug #1: It doesn't always select all of the wall when you click on it, so if you have doors/windows/angles it may leave pieces of the wall as unchanged.
  • Bug #2: It changes the display in the plan view by added to the existing layer instead of replacing it (the old layer should was cut away by this tool).
  • Bug #3: It doesn't update the dimensions of the room based on the thickness of the new layers.

  

• Delete Surface - This tool works faster than the Wall Material Region tool if you simply want to remove the finish layers (for example, in an unfinished space such as an attic, above a porch roof, etc.) but it is a bit buggy too (see points below).  In addition to the bugs it acts a little different than the Wall Material Region tool (which selects the visible wall surface)...this tool selects the entire wall, including the sections of it that are located in other rooms along the same wall.  That difference is a bit annoying since you then have to use the Wall Material Region tool to put back the deleted surface in the other room, so beware that they don't act the same.
  • Bug #1: The 3D display doesn't seem to update consistently, so it looks like the layers are still there after you have moved them already.  You can confirm that this is the case by clicking on the Rebuild 3D button which will often update the display and fix the issue I just mentioned, but it can be very confusing due to the next bug.
  • Bug #2: The delete tool doesn't always "stick"...you can delete the material layers and they will appear deleted, but then when you close and reopen the 3D camera they will be back.  I was able to successfully use this tool in another plan, but if you look at the super simple example plan that I attached to the bottom of this post you will see that it never actually saved when I deleted the surfaces from the side walls.  Try it yourself to see if you can delete them in a dollhouse view (it will look like it works) and then close and reopen that same view and the surfaces will be back.
  • Bug #3: The doesn't update the plan view to reflect the removed layers.  I confirmed this on another plan where the tool actually seemed to remove the walls.
  • Bug #4: It doesn't update the room dimensions to reflect the removed thickness of the layers.  I confirmed this on another plan where the tool actually seemed to remove the walls.

PS - It looks like this was previously called Floor/Wall Layered Material Polyline (you can see it in this video).  Yesterday I suggested that we rename it to Floor/Wall Finish Layer Regions to be more like the Floor/Ceiling Finish Definition dialog boxes found on the Room Specification's Structure tab (see below).  I think I like "Finish Layers" better than "Materials" since it reflects the fact that (a) there are multiple layers and (b) that they are not simply 0" thick materials, but actual layers that should affect the schedules, materials list and room dimensions (if the bugs I mentioned above are fixed).

 

Example of Wall Tool Bugs.plan

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, SpeleoWorm said:

help

The Delete Surface Tool was specifically designed to temporarily modify 3d geometry in order to capture that geometry as a symbol with the Convert to Symbol Tool. It will not do what you are looking for it to do and is not a bug unfortunately.

 

Naming conventions, classifications, and good old construction-based locution run amok in the software and have been pointed out on many occasions. 

 

The function you are seeking for automatically changing wall interior layers by room type should be a standalone request and I'm sure a few people will jump on board as it has been suggested a few times...as well as the option to have Interior layers of a room automatically change intersection options to go outside of the room as in the case of a shower finish. An offset if you will. Wall Type Exterior and Interior Layers being broken into Layers has also been suggested many times and is one I push on about year after year.

 

I would suggest you turn off the Room Interior Dimensions layer and forget that it ever existed. If I draw an L shaped room and send it to my builders with that layer on I'd quickly be nicknamed The Dodo Bird.

 

I haven't read all of your posts, but I get the sense that you want to change the interior layers of a wall without having to draw a new wall. I would suggest you save your various wall types to your library. Very fast way to draw a new wall with a high level of accuracy for your average use case. 

While you are setting up your standards I would suggest you add the Define Wall Types Tool to a Toolbar. A few less steps to be able to modify wall definitions.

Make sure to use the Save As Template Tool when your finished.

 

Quick to look up any mentioned tool in the forums by getting into your Customize Toolbar Tool by right clicking a toolbar tray.

Hope that helped

..and welcome to the forum!

 

 

 

[SpeleoWorm]

Thanks Renerabbitt!  For some reason the delete surface tool did work for me in another plan, so I had a look at what it did and noticed that it simply changed the material to "Opening (no material)".  I am able to use that approach a lot easier from the plan view by selecting multiple walls and simply change/remove the material to get it to "stick".  I am not sure if this adjusts the schedules & material list however, but hopefully?

 

It is the multiple wall type definitions that created all of the problems mentioned above...I thought that was the answer and I created a lot of definitions for different situations, but I didn't realize that it screws up all of the framing when you do that.  For example, it cuts the top & bottom plates into small pieces even if the framing layer of that wall is identical, and it does the same to floor joists under the wall, which doesn't make any sense at all.  I have been eliminating all of those different wall types now in order to get the framing to come close to what it should be, and I am using the trick mentioned above as well as the Wall Material Region tool to change the finish layers in each room.  It is tedious, but seems to be the best option I can find.

 

Good idea about removing the wall dimensions from the plan, but my concern is that it is also likely miscalculating the surface dimensions for everything (such as the material lists, energy calculations, total living space, etc.).  Fortunately most of the changes are small (i.e. 5/8" Type X vs 1/2" drywall) but sometimes they are bigger (i.e. when you add 1-2" rigid insulation to a wall - also not common for interior walls, but it can happen in a garage).  So, this is the least of my concerns, but it still appears to be a bug and I would hope that Chief Architect will fix it one day.

 

PS - I have made many modifications to the toolbars including adding the Define Wall Types button...that helps out a lot!

 

4 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

The function you are seeking for automatically changing wall interior layers by room type should be a standalone request and I'm sure a few people will jump on board as it has been suggested a few times...

 

Here is that suggestion: Add Wall Finish to Room Specification Dialog

 

I also made this naming suggestion Rename Different "Material" Names and this layer grouping suggestion Add Named Finish Layer Groups/Types

[Alaskan_Son]

27 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

The Delete Surface Tool was specifically designed to temporarily modify 3d geometry in order to capture that geometry as a symbol with the Convert to Symbol Tool.

 

It actually has a lot more useful purposes than that.  Its always used for temporarily deleting surfaces, but in addition to using it to create symbols, it can also be used to investigate/troubleshoot you plan where you might want to delete surfaces to see (or maybe select) geometry behind them, it can be used to temporarily delete surfaces in order to create a CAD Detail From View without undesirable geometry in that view, and it can be used to temporarily remove surfaces for a quick rendering/screenshot.  A very handy tool though.

[Renerabbitt]

1 minute ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

It actually has a lot more useful purposes than that.  Its always used for temporarily deleting surfaces, but in addition to using it to create symbols, it can also be used to investigate/troubleshoot you plan where you might want to delete surfaces to see (or maybe select) geometry behind them, it can be used to temporarily delete surfaces in order to create a CAD Detail From View without undesirable geometry in that view, and it can be used to temporarily remove surfaces for a quick rendering/screenshot.  A very handy tool though.

Funny I almost mentioned its other uses specifically because I thought you might roast me. haha

 

[Alaskan_Son]

3 hours ago, SpeleoWorm said:

It changes the display in the plan view by added to the existing layer instead of replacing it (the old layer should was cut away by this tool).

 

You have to set Material Regions to Cut Finish Layers Of Parent Object if you want it to do so.

[Renerabbitt]

4 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

You have to set Material Regions to Cut Finish Layers Of Parent Object if you want it to do so.

Worm is doing that, the Interior Layer still shows up in plan view.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

He's doing that, the Interior Layer still shows up in plan view.

 

Oh, I see. Talking about plan view lines.  I missed that.

[Renerabbitt]

25 minutes ago, SpeleoWorm said:

Thanks Renerabbitt!  For some reason the delete surface tool did work for me in another plan, so I had a look at what it did and noticed that it simply changed the material to "Opening (no material)".  I am able to use that approach a lot easier from the plan view by selecting multiple walls and simply change/remove the material to get it to "stick".  I am not sure if this adjusts the schedules & material list however, but hopefully?

I would stop using that tool for that purpose.

 

It is the multiple wall type definitions that created all of the problems mentioned above...I thought that was the answer and I created a lot of definitions for different situations, but I didn't realize that it screws up all of the framing when you do that.  For example, it cuts the top & bottom plates into small pieces even if the framing layer of that wall is identical, and it does the same to floor joists under the wall, which doesn't make any sense at all.  I have been eliminating all of those different wall types now in order to get the framing to come close to what it should be, and I am using the trick mentioned above as well as the Wall Material Region tool to change the finish layers in each room.  It is tedious, but seems to be the best option I can find.

Assuming you mean it cuts the rim joist. I believe it cuts the plates for the purpose of creating the Wall Detail that can be viewed in your project browser or by selecting the tool in your Edit Toolbar. The added framing members would seem appropriate as you should need a nailer for a joint.
 WAY WAY faster to modify the framing than drawing a bunch of material regions.

 

Good idea about removing the wall dimensions from the plan, but my concern is that it is also likely miscalculating the surface dimensions for everything (such as the material lists, energy calculations, total living space, etc.).  Fortunately most of the changes are small (i.e. 5/8" Type X vs 1/2" drywall) but sometimes they are bigger (i.e. when you add 1-2" rigid insulation to a wall - also not common for interior walls, but it can happen in a garage).  So, this is the least of my concerns, but it still appears to be a bug and I would hope that Chief Architect will fix it one day.

 

PS - I have made many modifications to the toolbars including adding the Define Wall Types button...that helps out a lot!

 

 

Here is that suggestion: Add Wall Finish to Room Specification Dialog

 

I also made this naming suggestion Rename Different "Material" Names and this layer grouping suggestion Add Named Finish Layer Groups/Types

 

[Kbird1]

20 hours ago, SpeleoWorm said:

 

Thanks!  I tried that option but it only applies to angled walls.

 

That has not been my finding but YMMV ? and it may not help in the specific example above ?

 

From the Help File: 

Select Horizontal Frame Thru to frame through the horizontal walls in plan view, butting vertical walls against them. If unchecked, walls that are vertical in plan view will frame through.

 

Framing is not the same either end you will notice , set either way though...

 

  

[Renerabbitt]

13 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Horizontal Frame Thru

We call this a California corner..we Californian's like to take credit for everything

[Kbird1]

37 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

We call this a California corner..we Californian's like to take credit for everything

 

it's even called that here      

 

but I actually mentioned it cos CA is not framing some of the corner in the posted plan correctly , though i didn't try this setting in the posted plan,

it was just a thought I had He could try...

 

M. 

[SpeleoWorm]

55 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

That has not been my finding but YMMV ? and it may not help in the specific example above ?

 

I mentioned "Angled Wall" because that is what it is listed under in the dialog box and the docs (see below), but regardless it is not the corners that are the issue, it is the framing in the middle of the wall (and under it) that is split up when you use different wall types.

 

  

 

59 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Framing is not the same either end you will notice , set either way though...

 

I see that it changed a little, but I am not sure it changed in the way that you think (i.e. the "California Corner")?  There were two U's on the bottom of your 1st screenshot, and two L's at the top...in the 2nd screenshot the U's moved to the left side and the L's moved to the right side, so it is the same framing just in a different orientation (see below).

 

  

 

In any case, it is the middle of the wall that is getting screwed up (see red circles in screenshot below).  I have added another example plan at the bottom if you want to check it out.

 

  

 

Thanks for your help and suggestions, it is appreciated.  I think I have solved the issues by setting the unfinished walls' material to "Opening (no material)" and using the Material Region tool to change any other walls (i.e. greenboard, Type X, etc.) to a different set of layers.

Example of Wall Tool Bugs.plan