REVIT USER

[mm407p]

I think that it would be great if Chief X9 would finally make an effort to be competitive with its main rivals.

At the moment it is living on the edge - I really cannot see a person which is employing a few people make competitive use of this program -  I think that there are just too many issues.

I agree with the previous comments which although acknowledges some efforts by Chief to accommodate its old users it certainly does not break a leg in its efforts.

It would be nice to be able to see 2D dotted lines for shelving in wall elevations - which currently are hidden behind closed doors. There are a number of other suggestion that I have made through SSA over a period of time which I generally been given a complex work around - not helpful!

I suppose there are a lot of priorities and it's always your own view that one supports.

Let's hope for better in 2017 with X9

Best for 2017 Chief Architect

 

[facer_03]

Well, put mm407p, good idea on using 2D dotted lines for shelving in wall elevations.

This will help make joinery drawings clearer.

 

All the best for Chief Users in 2017.

[mm407p]

Thanks facer_03 - Happy New Year!

[mthd97]

MM we have our own elevation display standards for cupboards and so does the NKBA in the US. We are left to make our own templates as you know in Australia with line styles and layers etc. We all expect our software to work properly too. When we had our Australian dealer, things were a bit better for us then with the template supplied. All the best.

[Jonnoxx]

8 hours ago, mthd97 said:

I think you need to have more respect for the CEO and the work the programmer's put into Chief with the resources they have. Perfection is not possible in this world but we all aim to do our best with what we have.

 

 

Nope!  You've got it completely the wrong way round.

 

It is the CEO that should be showing "respect" for his customers.  And he does that by RESPONDING to their requests and complaints. 

 

IGNORING simple, valid and fundamental requests for more than TWENTY years from a knowledgeable and enthusiastic customer base?  Absolutely NOT ON!

 

The coming X9 release appears to be wholly UNDERWHELMING.  It would pass (maybe) as an interim point improvement.  Or if this inconsequential fluff was bundled ALONG with REAL product improvements.  But THIS fluff, as the WHOLE product update that one should get excited about?  Come on!

 

Who, in planning this X9 release, decided THIS was what should be TOP of the list?  Who was the person who decided that TWENTY-year valid complaints would get to be IGNORED for yet ANOTHER year?  And that the available programmers should rather work on inconsequential stuff INSTEAD?  Who decided these priorities?  THAT person(s) needs to be held to account for these seemingly poor decisions and priorities.

 

I am well aware that there is a limited budget.  There always is.  Nobody is asking for instant perfection, but one definitely wants to see the roadmap, and be assured that the best interests of the customers are being resolutely and speedily attended to. 

 

The germane issue is whether the development budget has been WISELY spent.  IMO, the so far released details of X9 raise a HUGE question mark on these issues.  And if that is indeed so, then Mr Wells (CEO of CA) has some 'splaining to do.

 

The more blind "trust" loyal customers give to companies, the MORE likely that trust and loyalty is simply taken for granted.  And in the worst-case scenario, even abused.

 

Genuflecting before the executive priesthood seldom ends well for blind loyalty.  For an outrageously extreme example of the dangers of blind loyalty remember Bernie Madoff's loyal customers who got well and truly shafted

 

Please don't misunderstand me. 

 

To your point, I think CA is a really, really good program, and the programmers are indeed top-notch.  And I applaud CA for the good work they have done.  The training videos and support for example, including THIS forum and the people on it are - far away - the VERY BEST in the industry, and IMO set the gold standard for this aspect (Archicad and the rest at Nemetschek, can take note!).

 

 

[facer_03]

HMS Courageous
Captain Jonnoxx,

 

Ahoy!

While your cannons are still hot, and the smoke is settling from your "friendly" broadside

you may want to consider sending over boarding parties in the form of email copies to:

 

1. sales@chiefarchitect.com

2. suggestions@chiefarchitect.com

3. info@chiefarchitect.com

 

Then
Make a hasty "retreat" because the "true loyal followers" of USS Chief Architect
are going to be gunning for you mate and they will hound you relentlessly over the sea!

 

Good luck and god speed!

 

 

 

[HumbleChief]

10 hours ago, mm407p said:

I really cannot see a person which is employing a few people make competitive use of this program -  I think that there are just too many issues.

I personally know of a company that has about 12 licenses and runs a successful business run by one the best Chief users out there. Just sayin' that just because you cannot see it don't necessarily make it so. Can't argue with what ease or issues there might be, but it is being done.

[HumbleChief]

4 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

 

Nope!  You've got it completely the wrong way round.

 

It is the CEO that should be showing "respect" for his customers.  And he does that by RESPONDING to their requests and complaints. 

 

IGNORING simple, valid and fundamental requests for more than TWENTY years from a knowledgeable and enthusiastic customer base?  Absolutely NOT ON!

 

The coming X9 release appears to be wholly UNDERWHELMING.  It would pass (maybe) as an interim point improvement.  Or if this inconsequential fluff was bundled ALONG with REAL product improvements.  But THIS fluff, as the WHOLE product update that one should get excited about?  Come on!

 

Who, in planning this X9 release, decided THIS was what should be TOP of the list?  Who was the person who decided that TWENTY-year valid complaints would get to be IGNORED for yet ANOTHER year?  And that the available programmers should rather work on inconsequential stuff INSTEAD?  Who decided these priorities?  THAT person(s) needs to be held to account for these seemingly poor decisions and priorities.

 

I am well aware that there is a limited budget.  There always is.  Nobody is asking for instant perfection, but one definitely wants to see the roadmap, and be assured that the best interests of the customers are being resolutely and speedily attended to. 

 

The germane issue is whether the development budget has been WISELY spent.  IMO, the so far released details of X9 raise a HUGE question mark on these issues.  And if that is indeed so, then Mr Wells (CEO of CA) has some 'splaining to do.

 

The more blind "trust" loyal customers give to companies, the MORE likely that trust and loyalty is simply taken for granted.  And in the worst-case scenario, even abused.

 

Genuflecting before the executive priesthood seldom ends well for blind loyalty.  For an outrageously extreme example of the dangers of blind loyalty remember Bernie Madoff's loyal customers who got well and truly shafted

 

Please don't misunderstand me. 

 

To your point, I think CA is a really, really good program, and the programmers are indeed top-notch.  And I applaud CA for the good work they have done.  The training videos and support for example, including THIS forum and the people on it are - far away - the VERY BEST in the industry, and IMO set the gold standard for this aspect (Archicad and the rest at Nemetschek, can take note!).

 

 

Your passion and points are again well taken but it seems you might be ignoring a very large portion of the user base that you and I can know nothing about and that the changes you (and I) think are important are also important to that user base, both new and existing users.

 

Again I happen to agree with your sentiments that Chief seems to simply pick the low hanging fruit for each upgrade (X9 seems to reflect this observation) but you do not know their customer base nor their market. You simply can't know their market, or their business model, or their mission, or their profit margins, or any other important aspect of running THEIR business. You (again, and I) can only know what you'd like to see in improvements in Chief and I and most likely others respect that and probably agree with some of the changes you'd like to see but I think facer has some good advice. Perhaps e-mail Greg Wells personally again and again until you get a response.

 

I'd be surprised if he addressed any of your concerns directly because that's not what a good CEO would do but perhaps rattling his cage might bring about some needed change but again, we all have to remember our version of needed change may not be the change really needed in Chief to make it the best it can be. It might be the best we think it can be but that single view ignores way too much of the business reality that we are not privy to, to have any real word merit.

 

That business reality (of which I can know nothing about from where I sit) is what has caused me to accept Chief for what it is. Am I "Genuflecting before the executive priesthood?" Perhaps.

 

Maybe I should post every day in the 'Suggestions' forum about the need for change in the floor spec dbx (which I did for a long time BTW). Maybe I should make videos clearly showing my confusion with terms used in the same dbx and how defaults aren't really defaults and how floor heights can change without clear user input and how when you get to the monslab floor there's an actual dbx for ceiling heights etc. etc. etc. (which I have done BTW) or maybe I should join a select group of 10 in a user group and meet with Greg Wells and all of the Chief staff in Idaho to go over specific user wants and desires (which I have done BTW) and so on and so on. But like I said or implied in an earlier post - I'm done.

 

Chief will simply make the changes they see fit to make. This is not a theory. I've watched features come out of the blue and wondered where they came from but each one has made Chief just a little better as I think X9 will be even with all the useless fluff. Do not get me wrong. I do not think that user input is ignored, but it seems to be secondary to another set of priorities set by the those who make such decisions.

 

Perhaps that makes your point jonnoxx? That those priorities and decisions are incorrect? Maybe you're right and maybe Chief has blundered its way into a very successful (again I think we must assume) business. But it's possible you (and I) are wrong and every 'incorrect' decision they've made has actually been the best decision for the company and has cemented their business into a more stable, profitable business than we can ever know.

 

Please do not stop with your requests as I think a poke in the eye with a sharp stick is good sometimes but you have to remember not every one wants to see the same changes and making those decisions is really hard when you're actually in the position to make them.

[HumbleChief]

3 hours ago, facer_03 said:

HMS Courageous
Captain Jonnoxx,

 

Ahoy!

While your cannons are still hot, and the smoke is settling from your "friendly" broadside

you may want to consider sending over boarding parties in the form of email copies to:

 

1. sales@chiefarchitect.com

2. suggestions@chiefarchitect.com

3. info@chiefarchitect.com

 

Then
Make a hasty "retreat" because the "true loyal followers" of HMS Chief Architect
are going to be gunning for you mate and they will hound you relentlessly over the sea!

 

Good luck and god speed!

 

 

 

Pretty good advice but I haven't seen too much of the "true loyal followers" on this forum.

[HumbleChief]

11 hours ago, mm407p said:

It would be nice to be able to see 2D dotted lines for shelving in wall elevations - which currently are hidden behind closed doors.

I assume you've posted that in the suggestions forum?

[Jonnoxx]

@HumbleChief

@Facer_03

 

Thanks for your comments, and I do take your points.

 

It's up to CA to 'splain themselves now.

 

I've said my say.

[mthd97]

Blind Trust ? Or seeing specific requests applied ?

 

1) Curved Roofs

2) Mono Slab types

3) Subscription (SSA)

4) Ridge Capping

5) Room Devider line

6) Niche tool

7) Stair tool Improvements

 

What else have others seen ?

 

What do they call the punishment of throwing someone overboard and dragging them over the barnacles under the ship ?

 

 

[facer_03]

Keelhauling

 

Keelhauling (Dutch kielhalen;^[1] "to drag along the keel"; German Kielholen; Swedish kölhalning; Danish kølhaling;

 Norwegian kjølhaling) is a form of punishment once meted out to sailors at sea.

 

The sailor was tied to a line that looped beneath the vessel, thrown overboard on one side of the ship, and dragged under the ship's keel, either from one side of the ship to the other, or the length of the ship (from bow to stern). As the hull was usually covered in barnacles and other marine growth, if the offender was pulled quickly, keelhauling would typically result in serious cuts, loss of limbs and even decapitation.^{[citation needed]} If the victim was dragged slowly, his weight might lower him sufficiently to miss the barnacles, but this method would frequently result in his drowning.

[mthd97]

I was thinking of the slang word for it in the Sea Shanty songs ? Funny stuff anyway we are only kidding.

[Richard_Morrison]

14 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

The germane issue is whether the development budget has been WISELY spent.  IMO, the so far released details of X9 raise a HUGE question mark on these issues.  And if that is indeed so, then Mr Wells (CEO of CA) has some 'splaining to do.

 

I'm not sure why you are of the opinion that Chief Architect OWES you anything at all, including an explanation. (Unless you are a shareholder, of course.) This is a simple business transaction. You are getting a license to use software for a stipulated price. If you think it's not worth it and some other program will do what you need/want at a better value, vote with your wallet. If some muckety-mucks at CA want to spend the entire development budget on hookers and lavish parties, and they have the right to do so, they may not get many upgrade orders, but so what? That is their own business decision. Personally, I may not think it's wise, but it's not my business to say. The value of the software is continuously being evaluated by its users, so they get pretty immediate feedback as to its worth. If X9 personally isn't worth the money to you, then stay with X8.

[johnny]

Chief has found some success by making otherwise complex modeling easy - primary ...since their goal was to have products that severed both DIY and professionals.  I believe what is holding CA premier back at this point is the same thing that made it successful before, and Chief is investing too much time now in eye candy that can help sell its DIY packages. 

 

That, and the fact they dont have a "Chief" architect in the development team for a product called "Chief Architect".  Imagine a company that specilized in medical software not having doctors as part of the decision making?  Vectorworks, Archicad, Allplan, Revit, etc etc all have architects as integral development team members and it ends up showing up in their products.

 

I run a group that just added its 8th Chief license (plus more 3rd party support with their own licenses).  The owners of the company ask me every so often if we should change to Revit or some other main-stream CAD package and i've resisted the move.  However, I will reassess after X10, and if Chief still gets hampered by DIY product offerings then we will need to look at a change.

 

....but I hope the best for Chief, since we have a lot invested.

[mthd97]

Hey Jonnoxx you are entitled to your opinions and I would like you just specify the problems with Chief Architect you are having. There are legitimate things that can be fixed in CA we just have to be more patient till they get addressed. In the meantime don't get upset with us Aussies as we are notorious for making fun of each other, it is actually a compliment but it can get out of hand if not correctly understood. Take care all the best with whatever CAD software you choose.

[Jonnoxx]

5 hours ago, Richard_Morrison said:

I'm not sure why you are of the opinion that Chief Architect OWES you anything at all, including an explanation. (Unless you are a shareholder, of course.) This is a simple business transaction. You are getting a license to use software for a stipulated price. If you think it's not worth it and some other program will do what you need/want at a better value, vote with your wallet. If some muckety-mucks at CA want to spend the entire development budget on hookers and lavish parties, and they have the right to do so, they may not get many upgrade orders, but so what? That is their own business decision. Personally, I may not think it's wise, but it's not my business to say. The value of the software is continuously being evaluated by its users, so they get pretty immediate feedback as to its worth. If X9 personally isn't worth the money to you, then stay with X8.

 

 

Buying and using a product (most any product) is SELDOM a "simple business transaction".

 

People buy products based on MORE than what they can immediately evaluate.  They ALSO buy (and usually very largely so!) on the sales promises and given or implied marketing expectations.  These "promises and expectations" are frequently greatly embellished by the vendor for their own (the vendor's) advantage (read "promise the world to the suckers" without any real intention on delivering it). 

 

The buyer is seldom in a position to properly evaluate the deal he THINKS he's getting - until AFTER the transaction.  In some cases, only LONG after the transaction closed.

 

This is particularly so the more complicated or sophisticated the product is.  For example, where the User will have a long-term relationship using the product; where the User is dependent in some critical way on the product performing to his expectation (eg his livelihood depends on it); where the User is in an unequal situation (usually subservient) where he needs the capability, but does not have the skills to make or alter the product himself to his own satisfaction.

 

In these transactions, the customer may well not be a direct shareholder, but he is definitely a STAKEHOLDER in the outcome, and as such is most certainly entitled to express an opinion.   I am aghast at this passive and ultimately self-defeating opinion ("... it's not my business to say").  That attitude just BEGS to get shafted.  And royally so.

 

Customers making excuses for their suppliers' behavior NEVER works out well for the peasants:   

 

Enron?

Volkswagen?

Wells Fargo?

Bernie Madoff?

Politicians???

 

What do you think would have happened to that flight this week in Indonesia with the drunk pilot if the passengers had not vigorously protested (Do you really think the buyers of plane tickets should just have bowed down to the management excuses ("STFU passengers, this plane belongs to us and WE decide what is good for you - NOT you??)

 

It is in the nature of lazy executives to eventually take advantage of passive loyal consumers, and throw them breadcrumbs instead of real value.

 

There's no need to make excuses for Greg Wells.  He's a big boy,  It's time for him to come out of the cockpit and speak directly to the passengers.  He can do that easily on this forum.  He knows where we are.

 

 

[DRAWZILLA]

Every software program has some problems, Don't try to make Chief like other software, just the way you like it. I can tell you that will never happen--ever. You should learn Chief as it is meant to be used. It works great for me. Any issue I might have is some functionality issues, and hope Chief will fix it, but they don't have to.  I can find an answer for every so called problem.  I love this program. Greg Wells is a great guy, I have met and spent some time with him. Your conspiracy theory's won't work here. I have requested many things that Chief has fixed, and I believe they will in the future. It just takes time and there are only so many hours in a day.

[Richard_Morrison]

7 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

<snip>

People buy products based on MORE than what they can immediately evaluate.  They ALSO buy (and usually very largely so!) on the sales promises and given or implied marketing expectations.  These "promises and expectations" are frequently greatly embellished by the vendor for their own (the vendor's) advantage (read "promise the world to the suckers" without any real intention on delivering it). 

 

<snip>

 

Customers making excuses for their suppliers' behavior NEVER works out well for the peasants:   

 

Enron?

Volkswagen?

Wells Fargo?

Bernie Madoff?

Politicians???

 

What do you think would have happened to that flight this week in Indonesia with the drunk pilot if the passengers had not vigorously protested (Do you really think the buyers of plane tickets should just have bowed down to the management excuses ("STFU passengers, this plane belongs to us and WE decide what is good for you - NOT you??)

 

It is in the nature of lazy executives to eventually take advantage of passive loyal consumers, and throw them breadcrumbs instead of real value.

 

There's no need to make excuses for Greg Wells.  He's a big boy,  It's time for him to come out of the cockpit and speak directly to the passengers.  He can do that easily on this forum.  He knows where we are.

 

 

If someone buys a product based on some expectation of the future, whose fault is that? In Chief's case, you are given a very generous trial period to see if the software meets your needs RIGHT NOW. Have you ever been given a promise of future features, or been led to believe that Chief will produce something that you need? I don't think so.

 

There is a difference between ILLEGAL conduct (which you've cited examples of) and poor business practices. However, I have yet to see anything that remotely constitutes poor business practices on Chief Architect's part. I have been disappointed that some features haven't been added, that they sometimes seem to be catering to a different market than I am in, and that there are a number of things still to be fixed, but over the past twenty years that I've been using this product, the general direction has been positive. I don't think anyone is shy about making their opinions known, and I am clear that the company is listening, perhaps better than most of its competitors. While they have fixed many bugs I've reported and even added some of the things I've requested, the company does not report to me. Your attitude sounds like a little boy who didn't get everything he wanted for Christmas, and demands an explanation from his parents as to why he didn't get more.

[Jonnoxx]

2 hours ago, DRAWZILLA said:

Every software program has some problems, Don't try to make Chief like other software, just the way you like it. I can tell you that will never happen--ever. You should learn Chief as it is meant to be used. It works great for me. Any issue I might have is some functionality issues, and hope Chief will fix it, but they don't have to.  I can find an answer for every so called problem.  I love this program. Greg Wells is a great guy, I have met and spent some time with him. Your conspiracy theory's won't work here. I have requested many things that Chief has fixed, and I believe they will in the future. It just takes time and there are only so many hours in a day.

 

 

Thanks for your comments, Perry.  I certainly take your points.

 

I'm very glad that CA works so well for you, and that you enjoy a closer relationship with Greg Wells than most of us plebs will ever get.  I totally agree that one should not try to change the unique spirit of what makes CA so special.  And one of those things is definitely the vibrant spirit of helpfulness and enthusiasm that one finds on this forum.  Guys like you (and there are too MANY others to list here now - but we know who you are!  )  make a HUGE contribution to the CA community in this regard, and are MUCH appreciated!

 

May you (all) have a wonderful year ahead in 2017, and may all our dreams come true sooner, rather than later.

[DRAWZILLA]

Thank you sir,  hey, you aren't so bad. I do hear you.

[HumbleChief]

2 hours ago, DRAWZILLA said:

You should learn Chief as it is meant to be used.

Couldn't agree more, but finding out how Chief "is meant to be used" can be a very arduous counter-intuitive adventure into uncharted and unexpected paradigms of software programming. Once you understand how Chief works, it works great, but that understanding can be very difficult to grasp for many people and embraces no standards or expected ways of working with design software or even common building practices and norms..

 

BTW I also love Chief and am beginning to really learn its ways and features. Well worth the steep (for me) learning curve.

[Rashid_Garuba]

Therefore an equally (more?) important idea is Chief scour these threads for issues that require secret/bizarre handshakes and update their documentation and/or create a sticky thread here. A thread walking new users through several floor structure conditions would be a great start. Such a thread would also free up the demands on those VERY nice members here without which the learning process would be even more difficult.

[Jonnoxx]

1 hour ago, Rashid_Garuba said:

Therefore an equally (more?) important idea is Chief scour these threads for issues that require secret/bizarre handshakes and update their documentation and/or create a sticky thread here. A thread walking new users through several floor structure conditions would be a great start. Such a thread would also free up the demands on those VERY nice members here without which the learning process would be even more difficult.

 

 

 

 

Totally agree!

 

CA's training videos are really excellent - especially the new ones for X8.  The lady giving these is obviously very knowledgeable and confident with the software, and has a really nice tone and way of explaining and helpfully suggesting good practices and useful points.

 

Having Ms Awsome spend an hour (or two?) just on the SINGLE subject of setting floor heights, and covering all the construction-types of floors and wall intersections (esp upper concrete floors and brick walls on 2nd and 3rd etc) without the rest of the house structure suddenly springing out of kilter, could be one of the most valuable EVER for the newbies. 

 

And then go through analyzing as many examples of bad problems that users can inadvertently create for themselves - and (the most important part) how to quickly fix 'em.

 

For an example, the problem given recently by ecampos under Foundation and Terrain in the Chatroom, and the really simple and very insightful solution by glennw

 

Seems an absolute no-brainer.

 

Strong hint to CA - Can you organize this video ASAP?  Like yesterday next week??