Porches and Patio foundations - Why they are so difficult to make and display accurately?

[bonddesigngroup]

I find it very perplexing how the software creates a foundation and foundation walls under a porch or patio that does not allow you to extend past the columns? No one places a column at the extents of the concrete in the real world.  I have to create a slab that extends out past to make it work, but Level 0 won't show the slab even when its turned on so I have to create poly lines to "represent" the porch concrete extents or try to somehow reference the slab from level 1. If something changes, the poly lines have to be changed manually creating the possibility and probability that the foundation plan will not match the floor plan.  This is very problematic and can cause serious and expensive errors in the field if this is not caught. If I turn off the foundation wall layer, I might as well manually create a foundation plan using poly lines.  If I have to manually draw a plan set I might as well use a 2d drafting tool like AutoCAD. When using the railing tool to create the porch columns, this problem is worse. I manually create posts for columns and slabs for porches, then use attic walls for the header (creating the room). This seems to work better, but there needs to be a better way to create covered porches.  I have been using Chief for almost a year and so I'm still new and very frustrated at the amount of time that is wasted trying to figure out work arounds.  The foundation tool needs to be improved to make it more user friendly. It has dialogue that was obviously created by a software engineer without any real world understanding of how concrete is designed or fabricated.  The software sees a foundation wall and a slab footing as the same object, but it has some sort of concrete rail that sits on top of it that cannot be turned off or controlled in a manner that is useful.  Example when creating a foundation grade beam under a recessed garage floor without a wall above it, it wants to project a concrete curb above the slab that cannot be turned off.  The dialogue for controlling the functions are not very well laid out and create an extreme amount of confusion. 

[Chrisb222]

37 minutes ago, bonddesigngroup said:

No one places a column at the extents of the concrete in the real world.  I have to create a slab that extends out past to make it work

 

I'm a little confused by your wording. I do often place columns at the extents of the foundation wall, but there's always a 1-1/2" lip on the slab around the foundation wall.

 

If you're talking about a typical 1-1/2" lip on the slab around the foundation, I do that with a 1-1/2" concrete layer added to the wall dialog. I also make the interior layer 1-1/2" so the main layer of the wall will be centered on the railing/posts:

 

 

However I do also sometimes place columns inside the extents of the foundation, and use other methods to also accomplish that automatically, if that's what you meant...

 

 

[bonddesigngroup]

Thank you for responding.  I have been frustrated with the learning curve of this software for a while. Being an Autodesk product junkie for years, I am used to their workflow.  I was definitely ranting in my frustration.  I appreciate your help.

[winterdd]

2 hours ago, bonddesigngroup said:

I find it very perplexing how the software creates a foundation and foundation walls under a porch or patio that does not allow you to extend past the columns? No one places a column at the extents of the concrete in the real world.  I have to create a slab that extends out past to make it work, but Level 0 won't show the slab even when its turned on so I have to create poly lines to "represent" the porch concrete extents or try to somehow reference the slab from level 1. If something changes, the poly lines have to be changed manually creating the possibility and probability that the foundation plan will not match the floor plan.  This is very problematic and can cause serious and expensive errors in the field if this is not caught. If I turn off the foundation wall layer, I might as well manually create a foundation plan using poly lines.  If I have to manually draw a plan set I might as well use a 2d drafting tool like AutoCAD. When using the railing tool to create the porch columns, this problem is worse. I manually create posts for columns and slabs for porches, then use attic walls for the header (creating the room). This seems to work better, but there needs to be a better way to create covered porches.  I have been using Chief for almost a year and so I'm still new and very frustrated at the amount of time that is wasted trying to figure out work arounds.  The foundation tool needs to be improved to make it more user friendly. It has dialogue that was obviously created by a software engineer without any real world understanding of how concrete is designed or fabricated.  The software sees a foundation wall and a slab footing as the same object, but it has some sort of concrete rail that sits on top of it that cannot be turned off or controlled in a manner that is useful.  Example when creating a foundation grade beam under a recessed garage floor without a wall above it, it wants to project a concrete curb above the slab that cannot be turned off.  The dialogue for controlling the functions are not very well laid out and create an extreme amount of confusion. 

HAHA, I have been thinking the same thing for years and just modify everything to suit.

[Northriver]

2 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

I'm a little confused by your wording. I do often place columns at the extents of the foundation wall, but there's always a 1-1/2" lip on the slab around the foundation wall.

 

If you're talking about a typical 1-1/2" lip on the slab around the foundation, I do that with a 1-1/2" concrete layer added to the wall dialog. I also make the interior layer 1-1/2" so the main layer of the wall will be centered on the railing/posts:

 

 

However I do also sometimes place columns inside the extents of the foundation, and use other methods to also accomplish that automatically, if that's what you meant...

 

 

Great advice.

Would the same work for an invisible wall ?

[SNestor]

I did this automatically. No frustration required 

The trick is to create a specific wall type for your porches...and then on the "wall properties" tab, specify an offset on the foundation. In this example I specified 1.5". Now...I'm not saying all is perfect when it comes to Chief a Porches and railing walls. I made the beam wide in order for the "frieze" to meet the beam. If you offset the wall...well, the frieze only extends to the face of the wall. But..the foundation part is fairly simple. 

 

No need for an invisible layer either. 

 

 

[Michael_Gia]

25 minutes ago, SNestor said:

I did this automatically. No frustration required 

The trick is to create a specific wall type for your porches...and then on the "wall properties" tab, specify an offset on the foundation. In this example I specified 1.5". Now...I'm not saying all is perfect when it comes to Chief a Porches and railing walls. I made the beam wide in order for the "frieze" to meet the beam. If you offset the wall...well, the frieze only extends to the face of the wall. But..the foundation part is fairly simple. 

 

No need for an invisible layer either. 

 

 

Let’s see AutoCAD do that, bucko!

 

(speaking to OP). 
 

The best thing about setting up your walls for the balcony the way you described is that you can redraw your balcony a million times and everything follows. 

 

If this is your template then all future plans will be as automated with that initial very small setup procedure. 
 

In Chief there is sometimes a little more work to figure this out and setup but in the long run it’s way more efficient than most other software of this type. 

[Chrisb222]

The method I described still allows the soffit to reach the beam, and automatically aligns everything to stack flush with the foundation, which is the most common technique here. The only downside is the visible joint between the slab and the overhang in vector views, but it's easy to do and looks correct in plan and 3D:

 

 

40 minutes ago, Northriver said:

Great advice.

Would the same work for an invisible wall ?

 

No but you can use an open railing with no rail, post, or beam to get the effect (if this is what you're after):

 

[SNestor]

@Chrisb222 - I like your method...but, the frieze will only build back to the face of the wall. In the examples below I offset the railing 1.5" to move it back to stack on the foundation...then the frieze will not touch the beam in the railing wall.

 

If the beam is 3" wider than the wall it works. 

 

   

[Chrisb222]

28 minutes ago, SNestor said:

@Chrisb222 - I like your method...but, the frieze will only build back to the face of the wall. In the examples below I offset the railing 1.5" to move it back to stack on the foundation...then the frieze will not touch the beam in the railing wall.

 

If the beam is 3" wider than the wall it works. 

 

   

 

Steve, I like your method too. But when i've tried it, the soffit didn't close. And I don't specify frieze on a beam, and typically don't specify frieze on an eave either.

 

Your picture number 1 does reveal another problem with my method though, which I deal with all the time and that is the porch ceiling projecting past the beam.

 

As you said earlier, nothing perfect with porches and railings. Or decks, for that matter, lol.

[SNestor]

@Chrisb222 - FYI...you are able to move the frieze in/out, up or down...I just spaced this. So...if you select the roof planes that need adjusting you can use the roof dialogue "frieze" tab and make minor adjustments to get the frieze board to rest on the face of the railing wall beam. 

 

[Chrisb222]

12 hours ago, SNestor said:

you are able to move the frieze in/out, up or down

 

Yep like I said, I don't spec frieze on a beam but that's a good approach.

 

The ceiling is still protruding past the beam, which isn't an issue on the eaves as it's usually in the soffit space, but it is on a gable. I take care of that by deleting the ceiling over room and drawing a manual ceiling plane.

 

Good discussion, I'm always up for learning new methods to deal with porches / railings.