Editing a 3D Symbol and it's bounding box.

[BWoods]

I am using Chief Architect Premier X12 on Windows 10. 

 

I have a fridge i took from the chief catalogs and need to increase the height and width, reduce the depth, and set it's bounding box to be 1/4" wider than the width of the fridge itself. I'm not sure what the correct process to do this is. First I set the size of my symbol in the general tab. Then I closed the tab, went to edit symbol > sizing, and it shows my bounding box is still the original size of the appliance. Changing the bounding box size from here increases the size of my appliance AND bounding box, so I'm left with a bounding box that is the correct size, within the 3D symbol as opposed to enveloping it, and my symbol is much larger than i need it to be. Then I thought I needed to set my bounding box to the right size proportionally to the existing symbol size (same height, same depth, + 1/4" in width for 1/8" space on either side of fridge opening) and increase my symbol size, which would increase my appliance size proportionally with the bounding box to give me the right size. This did not work either. I'm completely lost on how this stuff works, and the tutorial chief has on bounding boxes doesn't help with this issue. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Just played with this and it seems that what you need to do is to drop say a 36" width fridge into your plan, Open the symbol and change the bounding box to be the exact size of the fridge, eliminate the built-in gapping. Then open up the object DBX and set the width to the actual size of the fridge, no gap. Now save the symbol to your library, bring that new symbol back into the plan, open up the symbol DBX and then change the bounding box width to include the gap you desire. It seems to be that the relationship between the actual symbol size and bounding box around it does not update without saving the symbol first, in other words it will always use the relationship when the symbol was first loaded. Not sure this makes sense but give it a try to see if it solves your issue.

[andr0id]

Thanks TKA.

 

Coincidentally, I was trying to build a fireplace with bounding box for combustible clearance and was getting similar odd behavior.

 

I finally got it to have the right bounding box by moving the origin to the front, but I get to see the backside of the fireplace in the library view.

 

I wish there were a decent video of this end to end.

 

[BWoods]

7 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Just played with this and it seems that what you need to do is to drop say a 36" width fridge into your plan, Open the symbol and change the bounding box to be the exact size of the fridge, eliminate the built-in gapping. Then open up the object DBX and set the width to the actual size of the fridge, no gap. Now save the symbol to your library, bring that new symbol back into the plan, open up the symbol DBX and then change the bounding box width to include the gap you desire. It seems to be that the relationship between the actual symbol size and bounding box around it does not update without saving the symbol first, in other words it will always use the relationship when the symbol was first loaded. Not sure this makes sense but give it a try to see if it solves your issue.

Yea this makes sense. I see first off when trying to do this, my bounding box is set to the exact width of the fridge, but still has somewhere between 1/16" and 1/32" extra space on either side of the fridge. If I set the bounding box to 1/16" less than the width of the fridge, my bounding box is now inside the fridge by a hair. It won't let me do bounding boxes to 32nds of an inch so I guess I just have to deal with having an extra 32nd of an inch space on either side of the fridge? Either way I'll follow these steps and update with results when done. 

[mtldesigns]

On top of this, I wish there was a way to explode symbols, even from manufacturing catalogs.  Instead of always modeling from scratch on a symbol you can't find, you one close and modify...  

[BWoods]

17 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Just played with this and it seems that what you need to do is to drop say a 36" width fridge into your plan, Open the symbol and change the bounding box to be the exact size of the fridge, eliminate the built-in gapping. Then open up the object DBX and set the width to the actual size of the fridge, no gap. Now save the symbol to your library, bring that new symbol back into the plan, open up the symbol DBX and then change the bounding box width to include the gap you desire. It seems to be that the relationship between the actual symbol size and bounding box around it does not update without saving the symbol first, in other words it will always use the relationship when the symbol was first loaded. Not sure this makes sense but give it a try to see if it solves your issue.

 

 

This did not seem to work. After setting the bounding box to the exact size of the fridge, changing the size of the fridge itself, adding to library, and back to plan, the symbol still shows the bounding box dimensions of the original fridge size. Basically, it seems like changing my fridge size does not update the size of the bounding box at all. I have pictures attached showing that my fridge is set to the size i need it to be, but the bounding box are still the original dimensions. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

7 minutes ago, BWoods said:

Yea this makes sense. I see first off when trying to do this, my bounding box is set to the exact width of the fridge, but still has somewhere between 1/16" and 1/32" extra space on either side of the fridge. If I set the bounding box to 1/16" less than the width of the fridge, my bounding box is now inside the fridge by a hair. It won't let me do bounding boxes to 32nds of an inch so I guess I just have to deal with having an extra 32nd of an inch space on either side of the fridge? Either way I'll follow these steps and update with results when done. 

 

I found the same issue when trying to get the bounding box set to be the exact size of the fridge. Something worth trying is to open up a new plan using a metric template, make sizing changes in metric. After you have everything correct save the symbol to the library and then go back to your imperial plan and drop it in. In metric there are no fractions so I find it resolves the issue where in imperial CA might limit you to 1/16" even though it's off by 1/32nd.

[TheKitchenAbode]

4 minutes ago, BWoods said:

 

 

This did not seem to work. After setting the bounding box to the exact size of the fridge, changing the size of the fridge itself, adding to library, and back to plan, the symbol still shows the bounding box dimensions of the original fridge size. Basically, it seems like changing my fridge size does not update the size of the bounding box at all. I have pictures attached showing that my fridge is set to the size i need it to be, but the bounding box are still the original dimensions. 

 

 

 

Maybe I forgot to mention a step. It worked fine here. I just dropped my saved library one in my plan and the object DBX width and the symbol DBX bounding box width match. All I need to do now is open the symbol and change the bounding box to include the gap. Keep in mind that when you do this the fridges object width will now change to match the new bounding box width. All widths are according to the bounding box width, not the symbol within the bounding box.

[BWoods]

9 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Maybe I forgot to mention a step. It worked fine here. I just dropped my saved library one in my plan and the object DBX width and the symbol DBX bounding box width match. All I need to do now is open the symbol and change the bounding box to include the gap. Keep in mind that when you do this the fridges object width will now change to match the new bounding box width. All widths are according to the bounding box width, not the symbol within the bounding box.

Im not sure what the issue is. After setting the sizes like you said, I save it to library, and pop the saved one into my plan and the bounding box still is the original size of the fridge. It did not change to match my adjusted symbol size. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

15 minutes ago, mtldesigns said:

On top of this, I wish there was a way to explode symbols, even from manufacturing catalogs.  Instead of always modeling from scratch on a symbol you can't find, you one close and modify...  

 

Would be great but the way symbols are set up all is lost so everything is just individual faces. Consider using Architectural CAD blocks instead, they can be unblocked so you can alter every component. You don't really even need to unblock them, just click over the item within the box you wish to alter, press Tab to select it and then select open object and you can adjust things in it's DBX. Saves unblocking and reblocking especially if the plan is very complex as it can be difficult to reselect all of the unblocked items in order to reblock it.

[mtldesigns]

So do you update your cad symbols in cad then carry over?

[TheKitchenAbode]

6 minutes ago, BWoods said:

Im not sure what the issue is. After setting the sizes like you said, I save it to library, and pop the saved one into my plan and the bounding box still is the original size of the fridge. It did not change to match my adjusted symbol size. 

 

Strange just repeated it and all is good.

 

Dropped fridge from library into plan. Opened the Symbol DBX, changed bounding box to be actual fridge width, no gap. Closed Symbol DBX. Opened Object DBX and changed width to exact new fridge width. Closed Object DBX. Then saved this one to my library as a symbol. Dropped it back into the plan and both the symbol bounding box width and the object width are the same. Next step is to open the symbol back up and adjust the bounding box to include the desired spacing. Now if you open up the Object DBX the width should now match the bounding box width. Keep in mind that after this if you change the fridges width through the Object DBX the bounding box size shown in the symbol DBX will not change, it will still show the former width.

[Alaskan_Son]

A few tips:

1. Think of a symbol as a collection of triangular 3D faces.  This geometry is fixed and will always be tied to that particular symbol.  Any changes made in the 3D or Sizing tab of the Symbol Specification dialog will not actually affect that original geometry, rather they will affect how that originally geometry will be displayed and how it will be treated when resized.
2. Think of the bounding box as the dimensions at which you want the aforementioned geometry displayed at full size.  Any changes to the size of the symbol will affect the displayed geometry proportionately.  
3. If you want to accurately adjust the sizing of your symbol's 3D geometry then you need to modify the original geometry.
4. With all the above in mind, it's typically best to wait till you have your desired geometry sized correctly and create a brand new symbol before messing with the bounding box.  Creating a new symbol will ensure that the symbol is using your desired geometry and not just a modified version of the original geometry.

If a symbol's bounding box has already been messed with it can really mess you up.  To reset it to it's original state, Open Symbol>3D and then click Rotate + followed immediately by Rotate -.  This will return the bounding box to the size of the original geometry. 

 

Once you get your symbol sized to your liking, select it, click Convert Selected To Symbol, and then take that NEW symbol and adjust its bounding box.

[BWoods]

31 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

• Think of a symbol as a collection of triangular 3D faces.  This geometry is fixed and will always be tied to that particular symbol.  Any changes made in the 3D or Sizing tab of the Symbol Specification dialog will not actually affect that original geometry, rather they will affect how that originally geometry will be displayed and how it will be treated when resized.
• Think of the bounding box as the dimensions at which you want the aforementioned geometry displayed at full size.  Any changes to the size of the symbol will affect the displayed geometry proportionately.  
• If you want to accurately adjust the sizing of your symbol's 3D geometry then you need to modify the original geometry.
• With all the above in mind, it's typically best to wait till you have your desired geometry sized correctly and create a brand new symbol before messing with the bounding box.  Creating a new symbol will ensure that the symbol is using your desired geometry and not just a modified version of the original geometry.

All good information. Appreciate it. 

32 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Once you get your symbol sized to your liking, select it, click Convert Selected To Symbol, and then take that NEW symbol and adjust its bounding box.

This was where I was messing up I think. Ignoring all other mistakes (messing with the bounding box first), I was simply saving my symbol to the library instead of converting it to a new symbol. 


To clarify for anyone who finds this thread later on: 

1. Place your selected symbol in plan

2. Open the Fixture Specification DBX

3. Set the W/H/D to what you need it

4. With the edited symbol selected, press Convert Selected To Symbol

5. Select Show Advanced Options. You may select Add to library if you like but not necessary. Click Ok. 

6. Go to the Sizing tab and enter the OPENING WIDTH (fridge width + 1/4" in my case) into the width tab.

7. This leaves me with a 23 3/4" fridge with a 24" bounding box. Note that if you open the Fixture Specification DBX from here, it will display the bounding box width dimension as opposed to the actual dimension of the fridge.

8. To test this worked, dimension the width of your fridge. Your extension lines should be just past the edge of each side of the fridge.

 

Thanks Michael, much appreciated.