What a JerkinHead

[DMDesigns]

Who's Ever Heard of a JERK-IN-HEAD roof? Sounds fun to me...

 

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[DavidJPotter]

In Chief it is called a "Norman Roof" (What is in a name...? )

 

DJP

[Alaskan_Son]

There's actually a built in automatic functionality for that...

[Alaskan_Son]

7 minutes ago, DavidJPotter said:

In Chief it is called a "Norman Roof" (What is in a name...? )

 

DJP

 

Actually, Chief calls it a Half-Hip...

[DzinEye]

14 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

There's actually a built in automatic functionality for that...

Doh!... I've always done those manually.
Not a major fan of controlling the roof from the wall dbx... c'est la vie

[DzinEye]

9 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Actually, Chief calls it a Half-Hip...

Seems to me that I've always learned it as the switcheroo between their Half-Hip and their Dutch Gable?

[DavidJPotter]

30 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Actually, Chief calls it a Half-Hip...

I should have looked first, duh!

 

DJP

[Alaskan_Son]

4 minutes ago, DavidJPotter said:

I should have looked first, duh!

 

DJP

 

I was thinking perhaps you just know someone named Norman who's a jerk and you naturally confused the 2 terms.

[DavidJPotter]

22 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I was thinking perhaps you just know someone named Norman who's a jerk and you naturally confused the 2 terms.

DJP

[Kbird1]

19 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

There's actually a built in automatic functionality for that...

 

Only it doesn't work as expected as I recently discovered ..., the in from baseline appears to mean nothing on a 1/2 hip , it appears to measure from the inside of the wall not from the Baseline in X10 ( which on a 1/2 hip appears to be the Fascia Line in Chief )                  and in X12 it is even worse.    (  I await to be corrected  )  M.

 

 

                                       X12                                                                                                                       X10 

 

  and X11 for comparison.

[LevisL]

1 hour ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Only it doesn't work as expected as I recently discovered ..., the in from baseline appears to mean nothing on a 1/2 hip , it appears to measure from the inside of the wall not from the Baseline in X10 ( which on a 1/2 hip appears to be the Fascia Line in Chief )                  and in X12 it is even worse.    (  I await to be corrected  )  M.

 

 

                                       X12                                                                                                                       X10 

 

  and X11 for comparison.

 

Mick, it's measured from the baselines going the other way.

 

[Alaskan_Son]

Yes.  It's being measured as Levis shows.  The baseline is the other way.  Its a gable end which has no baseline of it's own from which to measure for that Upper Pitch.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, LevisL said:

 

Mick, it's measured from the baselines going the other way.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Yes.  It's being measured at Levis shows.  The baseline is the other way.  Its a gable end which has no baseline of it's own from which to measure for that Upper Pitch.

 

Weird cos there is a Baseline for that Plane out at the Fascia , which I assumed was the one it was using for the measurement.

 

I wasn't sure why 3 different versions all calculated it differently though , but your explanation would solve that I think, as I didn't use the same house (width X length) in each version, I just drew a random box.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, LevisL said:

 

 

 

 

Please Submit this Pic for Addition to the Ref. Manual Levis    , I need to send it to the Person who asked me about it last week

 

Mick.

[Alaskan_Son]

8 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Weird cos there is a Baseline for that Plane out at the Fascia , which I assumed was the one it was using for the measurement.

 

You can't create a roof plane that references itself.  That would be a circular reference.  Besides, it's called an upper pitch. 

[Alaskan_Son]

5 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

 

Please Submit this Pic for Addition to the Ref. Manual Levis    , I need to send it to the Person who asked me about it last week

 

Mick.

 

Although I do think it makes sense as it works, I can also agree that the information in the Help files on this particular roof style is oddly generic and pretty minimal.  It looks like it was just pulled from the Tutorial Guide and as such there's no context.

[DzinEye]

11 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Weird cos there is a Baseline for that Plane out at the Fascia , which I assumed was the one it was using for the measurement.

I would've probably experienced the same hang-up.  Not intuitive.  It would help make it more clear by labeling it "In from baselines" or "In from each side baseline"... but  even better why not just ask how wide you want that upper hip to be?  

[Alaskan_Son]

12 hours ago, DzinEye said:

"In from baselines"

 

That wouldn't work because there can be multiple baselines.  It can only use one (and I think it just uses the highest of the 2).

 

12 hours ago, DzinEye said:

why not just ask how wide you want that upper hip to be?  

 

Because they had to pick something to use.  It could have been anything really.  Why not just be consistent and use same In From Baseline? 

[DzinEye]

11 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Because the had to pick something to use.  It could have been anything realy.  Why not just be consistent and use same In From Baseline? 

Because of the ambiguity/confusion which Mick just highlighted.
If it asked for width of hip there would be no ambiguity.
When you suggest 'in from baseline' is consistent... what is it consistent with?  If you are using 'in from baseline for a pitch change on a roof plane, then yes it makes sense, because you're working on the plane with the baseline it's measuring from.

I understand that once you learn such nuances it's no longer an issue, and everyone who's gotten used to the 'way things are' doesn't want to see anything change, but in the long run, my opinion is that it's always best to make software as intuitive as possible.

[Kbird1]

Okay, I just could let this go yet as it's annoyingly WRONG, ..... how Chief is doing this..... at least from the point of view of This Builder/Master Carpenter   

and perhaps I am once again  " missing something "  with my conclusions....... but....

 

and not picking on anyone but to illustrate some points made....... and from some observations from a basic 40'x30' Gabled Box home with a 10/12 pitch.... 

 

On 3/26/2020 at 9:53 AM, Alaskan_Son said:

Yes.  It's being measured as Levis shows.  The baseline is the other way.  Its a gable end which has no baseline of it's own from which to measure for that Upper Pitch.

 

A Gable Wall in Chief doesn't have a Baseline (BL) , no, so why is Chief Using it as a basis for the so called Upper Pitch?  a Roof Plane always has a BL, both in Chief and the Real World (RW) but it's NOT an Upper Pitch ..... it is a Hip Roof Plane, building off a different Wall Plate Height (the Seat Cut of the Birdsmouth Height.)  this is the Height Chief should be using to calculate the "Cut" point IMHO.

 

The fact it is not an Upper Pitch is shown in Chief's own DBX's  ie the Roof Rafter Pitch is 0/12  , even though it displays at the "given pitch"  on Cross Section ( 6/12 below ), a Cross Section through the Main Roof Plane and 1/2 hip confirms this... ie it shows the Half Hip roof plane is parallel to the ground or 0° (or 180°).

.

On 3/26/2020 at 10:19 AM, Alaskan_Son said:

 

You can't create a roof plane that references itself.  That would be a circular reference.  Besides, it's called an upper pitch. 

 

Chief CHEATS and calls it an Upper Pitch , when it isn't really, personally I have never seen it calculate the way they do it, and from Framing it in my Test Plan, it is not cutting Birdsmouths (BM) on the 1/2 Hip Rafters thus they are ALL too high (I assume) or the Wall is Framing at the wrong Height?. The Rafters weren't "Trimming to Soffit" either at 1st, until I lowered them down (the measured ( 2 3/4") BM Depth), then something "clicked" in the "auto roof framing tool" and they were okay.

 

On 3/26/2020 at 10:33 PM, Alaskan_Son said:

Because they had to pick something to use.  It could have been anything really.  Why not just be consistent and use same In From Baseline? 

 

It's not a Consistent use of the Term, the Setting doesn't even work the same way as it does, for example on Gambrel or Mansard or Gullwing Roofs. I think someone just found a way to use "Existing Code" ( and DBX) to Fudge it, and not to document this total change in behavior ( ie consistency of the term "in from baseline" ) somewhere is just wrong and unhelpful for all Users trying to figure this out.  Levis' pic (above) or similar and a short explanation in the Ref. Manual on how Chief "does it" would of sufficed for one and all.

 

And back on Topic ( ...sorry Dave),  his way in the last few minutes of the Video, may actually be easier if your Architect was kind enough to give you the Fascia Height.

 

// Rant Off //...... and yes I do feel better   

 

 

 

 

M.

 

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

32 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

A Gable Wall in Chief doesn't have a Baseline (BL) , no, so why is Chief Using it as a basis for the so called Upper Pitch?

 

Whether you agree with the logic and approach or not, I'm sure the reason is because they wanted to re-use the code and dialog box.  I would do the same thing if it seemed logical to me.  I think that's where the core of our disagreements lie (whether between you and I, you and Chief, me and Chief, etc.).  Chief chose to use the baseline of the perpendicular roof plane.  I see nothing wrong with this. Yes, I can see the benefit of using a different parameter such as width at wall.  Go ahead and request it.  That would be great.

 

41 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

The fact it is not an Upper Pitch is shown in Chief's own DBX's

I think you're grasping at straws with this one.  Sure if you measure it from that direction there's no pitch, but its easy enough to understand that its pitched and its also an upper plane.  We can use at least a very small amount of deductive reasoning there.

 

45 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Levis' pic (above) or similar and a short explanation in the Ref. Manual on how Chief "does it" would of sufficed for one and all.

This I can certainly agree with. 

 

45 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

And back on Topic ( ...sorry Dave),  his way in the last few minutes of the Video, may actually be easier if your Architect was kind enough to give you the Fascia Height.

True, but the more we can use auto settings, the better. 

[DzinEye]

3 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

And back on Topic ( ...sorry Dave),  his way in the last few minutes of the Video, may actually be easier if your Architect was kind enough to give you the Fascia Height.

Oh bloody hell... it always circles back to being the architects fault   

[Kbird1]

15 hours ago, DzinEye said:

Oh bloody hell... it always circles back to being the architects fault   

 

It's Never the Architect's Fault , most of you put that right on every single page off the Plan Set  ..... just joking , I didn't mean it quite like you took it I think, I've just seen a lot of PDF Plan-sets lately that are very poorly dimensioned, apparently AutoCAD mustn't have an Auto Exterior Dimension Tool bad  .

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

17 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Whether you agree with the logic and approach or not, I'm sure the reason is because they wanted to re-use the code and dialog box.  I would do the same thing if it seemed logical to me.  I think that's where the core of our disagreements lie (whether between you and I, you and Chief, me and Chief, etc.).  Chief chose to use the baseline of the perpendicular roof plane.  I see nothing wrong with this. Yes, I can see the benefit of using a different parameter such as width at wall.  Go ahead and request it.  That would be great.

 

Wall width doesn't really work either but is an alternative I guess and better than the current method..... as with the other person who asked me recently , normally you just want to know the distance in from the gable wall the pitch change starts at the ridge Level , eg in their case they were try to get chief to start the pitch down 11ft from the gable wall. It's also one of the easier ways to do it Onsite , measure in from gable wall, ( baseline) lop off the ridge you previously ran long, and offer up the precut Common Rafter ( you made using known pitch + run ) .  All assuming the Truss company hasn't already done it differently

 

17 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I think you're grasping at straws with this one.  Sure if you measure it from that direction there's no pitch, but its easy enough to understand that its pitched and its also an upper plane.  We can use at least a very small amount of deductive reasoning there.

 

Not at all it isn't an Upper Pitch, as Noted above, no matter if Chief wants to call it that to make there Code and DBX work.

 

17 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

True, but the more we can use auto settings, the better. 

 

Oh I am all for that , and I am sure with your level of Skill  n Chief you can make Chief's way work to get that cut point exactly at 11ft from the Gable Wall , but it's obvious that everyday Users can't ,ESPECIALLY when then have no clue how Chief is really calculating the Pitch Change Point.

 

Enough from me , I just needed to play with it for my own learning but still see no easier way to do what is normally wanted.....

 

M. 

[DzinEye]

1 hour ago, Kbird1 said:

It's Never the Architect's Fault , most of you put that right on every single page off the Plan Set  ..... just joking , I didn't mean it quite like you took it I think, I've just seen a lot of PDF Plan-sets lately that are very poorly dimensioned, apparently AutoCAD mustn't have an Auto Exterior Dimension Tool bad  .

Of course I knew you were just having a dig, but you're right...architects do put a lot of that kind of language on the drawings... I definitely have both you posted on all my drawings!