AvoyeDesign Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Cameron Lacombe Friday, Jul 20, 2018 - 09:04 AM PDT Hi, Currently, there are no further updates schedule for X10 this year. As to what's involved about features and updates to X11, that's outside the scope of our function in Technical Support. Cameron Chief Architect Technical Support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridge_Runner Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 hours ago, KervinHomeDesign said: Currently, there are no further updates schedule for X10 this year. I guess that cuts down on the forum discussions some, at least till X11 rumors start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 8 hours ago, KervinHomeDesign said: Currently, there are no further updates schedule for X10 this year. This is extremely disappointing. A number of reported bugs, such as niches making wall hatching go wonky (reported back in Feb.), are still not fixed. Makes you wonder about the value of reporting bugs, especially when they are lingering for many months, if not years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Richard_Morrison said: such as niches making wall hatching go wonky This ^^^^ is a pretty bad one too. Not a matter of opinion, not debatable, not subjective in any way...just not important enough to fix I guess (insert sad emoji shaking its head). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Richard_Morrison said: ....Makes you wonder about the value of reporting bugs, especially when they are lingering for many months, if not years. I rarely take the time any more because some just sit there unresolved - for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: This ^^^^ is a pretty bad one too. Not a matter of opinion, not debatable, not subjective in any way...just not important enough to fix I guess (insert sad emoji shaking its head). This is all about the personnel at Chief. All great people, I have met them, but someone is making these decisions to ignore reported and demonstrable bugs along with constant requests on this forum to report them. Why would we? Why should we? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 6 hours ago, HumbleChief said: This is all about the personnel at Chief. All great people, I have met them, but someone is making these decisions to ignore reported and demonstrable bugs along with constant requests on this forum to report them. Why would we? Why should we? I can tell you from extensive experience in this arena that reported bugs very commonly get fixed. Unreported bugs pretty much never get fixed. For the reported bugs that do not get fixed, I believe that it's usually a matter of priorities. If only 1 person is reporting a bug and 4 people are reporting another, which one do you think is going to get fixed? Take the wall hatching bug for example. I'm assuming Richard has reported it, but has anyone else? If that bug is the result of a notable programming flaw that would take a substantial amount of time to fix and only one or 2 users are reporting it, I don't know that I would want to spend much time fixing it either. "Why would we?" To make sure Chief knows about it. "Why should we?" To help increase the likelihood that it will get addressed. There was one easily reproducible and non debatable bug in particular that really annoyed the crap out of me that I reported multiple times. It remained unfixed for years though. Why? I honestly believe I may have been the only user who was reporting it. It finally got fixed (either in X9 or X10 I think), but my point is that if other users had taken time to report it, maybe I wouldn't have had to report it 4 or 5 times and raise a major stink to get it taken care of. Do us all a favor and just report this stuff. If you do and it doesn't get fixed, at least you know you've done what you can. If you don't and it doesn't get fixed, well... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, solver said: This isn't a bug, it's a difference of opinions My thoughts exactly. I personally never expected any of my picture files or PDFs to update automatically. That’s just me though. Having the option is a good suggestion but I certainly don’t think it qualifies as a bug just because SOME people expect something different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 All great sentiments and there is a certain responsibility that rests on the user and a certain responsibility that rests on the software developers. If you report a bug, which is part of our responsibility as users, that responsibility ends with that report. The responsibility of the developers takes over and the bug should be prioritized, addressed and fixed. Now as the dev. do you wait and see how many people complain about a bug and move it up the priority list accordingly? I certainly hope not. That would require more responsibility on the user than is warranted IMO and relieves the devs of theirs. "Oh that doesn't seem to worry our users, let's not fix it." That's a horrible measure of the effect of a bug on a user base. If a bug simply goes unfixed for a long period of time it demotivates the user base to even report bugs. Why should we? If they are ignored for years and not fixed? Not enough people reported the bug? Really? Not saying Chief thinks this way and I hope not. This specific behavior of Chief, to me, is very out of the ordinary and can cause genuine harm and costs in time and effort. Is it a bug? I personally don't care what it's called. The behavior is intended and is part of the internal design of how Chief works as it caches files etc. to speed the program but that intended behavior was never OK for many users until they understand how Chief behaves, which is different than any other software I've ever used. Any user can feel free to report bugs as long as they'd like. Personally I'm done. I've used Chief for about 20 years, absolutely love the program, and I know who the company is. Not from speculation. or a bias from inexperience but from a long long time of demonstrable behavior. Chief talks a great game of customer service etc. but many times do not deliver on that talk. Again great people, but the execution of the promises can be a bit lacking and sometimes just down right poor despite customer feedback. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said: My thoughts exactly. I personally never expected any of my picture files or PDFs to update automatically. That’s just me though. Having the option is a good suggestion but I certainly don’t think it qualifies as a bug just because SOME people expect something different. The problem with this is that I expected to have to update the PDF myself. I did so by deleting the PDF in my layout and importing the updated version. However, this due diligence isn't enough when chief just pulls the old one from cache until you restart, and doesn't warn the user. If I were to make a PDF of my layout at that point, the drawings could go out for permit with outdated information. I bet many users will do the same and believe they did enough. No, this is an oversight that the developers need to fix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 5 hours ago, KervinHomeDesign said: The problem with this is that I expected to have to update the PDF myself. I did so by deleting the PDF in my layout and importing the updated version. However, this due diligence isn't enough when chief just pulls the old one from cache until you restart, and doesn't warn the user. If I were to make a PDF of my layout at that point, the drawings could go out for permit with outdated information. I bet many users will do the same and believe they did enough. No, this is an oversight that the developers need to fix. It only has to catch one person out one time to be an important behavior that should be changed. Don't call it a bug, make up any name you choose, and by all means don't wait until enough people note it because most users will not report bugs - or any other unexpected behavior but once (EDIT: a bug is discovered that causes some harm to the user) it seems it should be of the highest priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, HumbleChief said: It only has to catch one person out one time to be an important behavior that should be changed. Don't call it a bug, make up any name you choose, and by all means don't wait until enough people note it because most users will not report bugs - or any other unexpected behavior but once discovered it seems it should be of the highest priority. A world where everything is always the highest priority. A mathematical impossibility but wouldn’t that be great!? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: A world where everything is always the highest priority. A mathematical impossibility but wouldn’t that be great!? Huh? Not sure what thread you are actually reading but was there a post somewhere in this thread that suggested everything is (or should) always the highest priority? And why would you quote the post you did and then respond as if there were a suggestion that someone suggested that everything is always the highest priority? I suggested specifically that if there are behaviors that catch someone out, and cost time and effort that those should be given priority so you can't be referring to the post you quoted but sometimes we all read what we want and I think you might have read in something that was never implied or suggested. Or least quote something or someone that is relevant to your response as a common courtesy. I went back and added a descriptor to the previous post but I thought I was talking about a behavior that caused harm and not just any and every bug should be highest priority. Ah never mind... Thanks 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said: Take the wall hatching bug for example. I'm assuming Richard has reported it, but has anyone else? If that bug is the result of a notable programming flaw that would take a substantial amount of time to fix and only one or 2 users are reporting it, I don't know that I would want to spend much time fixing it either. The wall hatching bug was an issue in X9. I reported it back then, and they fixed it. It reappeared in X10, and still has not been fixed, which is disappointing, since they clearly know what to do, and presumably have most of the code available to fix it. This bug is more of a petty annoyance, though. The PDF failure to update is a scary issue that could cost us some major embarrassment, if not some serious money. This is in a whole 'nuther league of potential liability, and I can't understand why this is being ignored. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 10:16 PM, Richard_Morrison said: The PDF failure to update is a scary issue that could cost us some major embarrassment, if not some serious money. This is in a whole 'nuther league of potential liability, and I can't understand why this is being ignored. This can't be emphesized enough... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I've sent a message back on the support ticket emphesizing the imortance of a fix for this, quoting Richard from above. If they don't take it anywhere I'm going to call tech support and discuss it over the phone, and talk to whoever I need to. Everyone here should submit a support ticket for this as well. They need to know that this is a big deal. Who knows if a developer has even read this thread yet. Nobody at chief has responded to this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 6:57 PM, HumbleChief said: Huh? Not sure what thread you are actually reading but was there a post somewhere in this thread that suggested everything is (or should) always the highest priority? And why would you quote the post you did and then respond as if there were a suggestion that someone suggested that everything is always the highest priority? I suggested specifically that if there are behaviors that catch someone out, and cost time and effort that those should be given priority so you can't be referring to the post you quoted but sometimes we all read what we want and I think you might have read in something that was never implied or suggested. Or least quote something or someone that is relevant to your response as a common courtesy. I went back and added a descriptor to the previous post but I thought I was talking about a behavior that caused harm and not just any and every bug should be highest priority. Ah never mind... Thanks Really? Are you kidding me? You said "It only has to catch one person out one time to be an important behavior that should be changed." and then you went on to say " by all means don't wait until enough people note it because most users will not report bugs - or any other unexpected behavior but once discovered it seems it should be of the highest priority." So your suggestion is that it only needs to affect one person one time and that simply discovering that it is a problem for that one user somehow warrants that it be made top priority and moved to the front of the list. This is simply unreasonable by any measure. I understand that this is a major issue to some of you guys and I sincerely hope it gets addressed for you, but I don't see how its above debate or how it deserves a higher spot on the list. There are plenty of us who have major issues with countless other things in Chief. This particular one is a non-issue for me and many others who take time to report our concerns so it needs to be fairly prioritized accordingly. By the way, I'm kinda curious...why do you guys insist on using modified PDF's that have the same name? I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. It just seems like good practice to modify the name if the file has been changed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said: I understand that this is a major issue to some of you guys and I sincerely hope it gets addressed for you, but I don't see how its above debate or how it deserves a higher spot on the list. There are plenty of us who have major issues with countless other things in Chief. This particular one is a non-issue for me and many others who take time to report our concerns so it needs to be fairly prioritized accordingly. By the way, I'm kinda curious...why do you guys insist on using modified PDF's that have the same name? I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. It just seems like good practice to modify the name if the file has been changed. The problem with this issue is that it is silent and deadly. While I can see problems with stair tools and door/window header framing right in front of me, and deal with them through frustrating workarounds, there is nothing to indicate that there is a bug or a shortcoming in the software when a PDF doesn't update. It is not a corner of the room you are stubbing your toe on every time you walk by, it is a silend and deadly cancer that you won't see until it is too late. And you are correct, that best practice would be to save each PDF as a new version, for proper archiving of records, and that this would fix this problem. But when does everyone follow best practices for every part of their work? You should have seen my bookkeeping practices from the last 10 years! Relying on best practices from users to fill the gaping hole of this feature is dangerous. If one party, Chief Architect, fixes this isssue, it is done, instead of relying on 10,000 parties, individual users, to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said: Really? Are you kidding me? You said "It only has to catch one person out one time to be an important behavior that should be changed." and then you went on to say " by all means don't wait until enough people note it because most users will not report bugs - or any other unexpected behavior but once discovered it seems it should be of the highest priority." So your suggestion is that it only needs to affect one person one time and that simply discovering that it is a problem for that one user somehow warrants that it be made top priority and moved to the front of the list. This is simply unreasonable by any measure. I understand that this is a major issue to some of you guys and I sincerely hope it gets addressed for you, but I don't see how its above debate or how it deserves a higher spot on the list. There are plenty of us who have major issues with countless other things in Chief. This particular one is a non-issue for me and many others who take time to report our concerns so it needs to be fairly prioritized accordingly. By the way, I'm kinda curious...why do you guys insist on using modified PDF's that have the same name? I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative. It just seems like good practice to modify the name if the file has been changed. This is clearly a case of a simple misunderstanding when writing and reading forum posts and simple differing opinions. I would bet we'd agree on all of our intentions in a simple conversation so let's not let posts here pollute both of our intent to be helpful. Maybe I posted the wrong words? In the wrong order? You disagree? Fine. The entire thread is about a problem that can 'catch a person out' in a harmful manner. Not about harmless nuisance bugs. If one person is cost time and money because of unexpected behavior or bug then I'm saying that should be changed post haste - as soon as headquarters knows that it can cause harm - no matter how many other people report it. Is that an unreasonable position to take? Maybe, but I think as soon as something is discovered that can cause genuine harm it should be fixed ASAP, and put at the very top of the priority list. We can differ on that of course and it's just my opinion but I know how I would react, and how I do react, on a day to day basis when I discover something that needs changing right now no matter if someone says something or not. Maybe it should take a lot of people getting harmed before anything is done? Again another opinion - I disagree - but it's valid none the less and obviously a position Chief has taken. We all know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I genuinely got caught out not knowing about Chief's behavior and it genuinely cost me time and money. It took a while to even understand that a program would load an older version of a file instead of the updated one. It never even occurred to me that this could happen. Again, I'm not the brightest bulb but learning about it really surprised me. Haven't been caught out since but even today I have to remember Chief's unique behavior in this regard and my assistant and I are always reminding each other to double check. If some users are OK with that behavior then not much I can do, but I personally am not OK with it. I've told headquarters and relayed my story but there's a little bit of a disconnect at Chief in that the tech support people have no power to prioritize changes, only report them. They are kind and understanding but a lot of the concerns i.e. bugs etc. may not get to those who do have the power to prioritize such things in a way that will cause timely change. I still love Chief and that will not change but I just think they can do better. I personally don't 'insist' that a saved PDF be saved with the same name it's just a habit I'm in to keep my file list clean and uncluttered. I simply don't want 3 or 4 similar files with different names. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 46 minutes ago, KervinHomeDesign said: The problem with this issue is that it is silent and deadly. While I can see problems with stair tools and door/window header framing right in front of me, and deal with them through frustrating workarounds, there is nothing to indicate that there is a bug or a shortcoming in the software when a PDF doesn't update. It is not a corner of the room you are stubbing your toe on every time you walk by, it is a silend and deadly cancer that you won't see until it is too late. And you are correct, that best practice would be to save each PDF as a new version, for proper archiving of records, and that this would fix this problem. But when does everyone follow best practices for every part of their work? You should have seen my bookkeeping practices from the last 10 years! Relying on best practices from users to fill the gaping hole of this feature is dangerous. If one party, Chief Architect, fixes this isssue, it is done, instead of relying on 10,000 parties, individual users, to get it right. As I've said I do think that this issue is unique, in the harm it can cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Got a reply to the tech support ticket: Hi,Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. I believe that other participants in the ChiefTalk thread you mentioned have also contacted us as well, and we appreciate your taking the time to do so. I will make sure our Software Development team knows that this issue is of particular concern to you.CameronChief Architect Technical Support Lets keep this up so our concerns are heard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonTroye Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 We are currently looking into a solution for this issue for the next version of Chief. This is a high priority for the development team. Thanks for your patience, and thanks to all that reported this to our Technical Support team. Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, JasonTroye said: We are currently looking into a solution for this issue for the next version of Chief. This is a high priority for the development team. Thanks for your patience, and thanks to all that reported this to our Technical Support team. Jason Thanks for your kind attention Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvoyeDesign Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 So no X10 fix. Well, at least it is a high priority for X11. Thanks for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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