Joe_Carrick

I would seriously like to be able to specify all of these things according to the size I want them to be printed.  Most of the computer world uses the Point Size but as draftsmen we think in terms of Ruler Size.  Here are some examples:

Text

   1/8" Chief Blueprint

   3/16" Arial

   1/4" Chief Blueprint

   1/2" Courier

   1/2" Comic San Serif

Arrows

   1/8" Filled Slant

   1/8" Barbed

   3/16" Filled Barbed

Callouts

   3/8" diameter

   1/2" diameter

   5/8" diameter

Dimension Setup

   1" Initial Offset

   3/8" Spacing

   etc.

This is the way we were trained and how we think about annotation sizes.  Chief currently provides us with a little built-in calculator so we can determine what real world size to specify so that we get the printed size we need depending on the desired scale of the final printed output. 

By having all of these things specified in the Text_Style dbx in printed size, Chief could then simply adjust according to the scale ratio.  IOW, if the text size is specified as 1/8" then Chief would simply multiply that by:

   24 for a 1/2"=1'-0" scale

   48 for a 1/4"=1'-0" scale

   96 for a 1/8"=1'-0" scale

   etc.

The same factors would be used for Dimension Spacing, etc.

Please let's get this part of the program back in line with how we think of these things.

Chief has some separate sidelights - I don't remember off hand if they'te in the Core, Bonus or Mfr Librarie - which can be place with the Door and a Window above an mulled together to form a single unit.

Doug,

I disagree in this regard,  Annosets don't set Defaults, they simply select a set of "Named Defaults".  IOW, the user may have several "Named Dimension Defaults", several "Named Text Defaults", etc.

An Annoset just selects which "Named Defaults" are made Active.  It's the "Named Defaults" that actually define/specify the Default settings.

This is why I suggest that Mark start a thread about Dimension Defaults.

Larry,

Why not just a new Layer Set?  Is it because you want to have a different CAD Layer or a different "Locate Object" setting in Dimensions that you need an Annoset to select everything at once?

Mark,

Defaults are their own subject.  It's really a separate topic from Annosets per se.  Start another thread and I'll pitch in with whatever wisdom I can provide.

The real power is item 2 in Joe's list. The other bits could be left out and they would still be very valuable.

Now your talking. Put #1 in the Layerset and add the option for Annoset in the Layerset and you'll make me really happy.

1.  It sets the Current CAD Layer

2.  It sets the Plan Annotation Defaults to a set of "Named" Defaults which in turn set the "Named Text Styles"

3.  It optionally selects the Active Layerset or leaves the Current Layerset as is.

That's it in a nutshell.

Currently I use about 30.

I would like to be using only about 10.

Better yet, I would really like to just be using about 20 Layersets and no Annosets at all.

With the current software I don't have either of my preferred options.

I disagree with Robert.  Chief is better at making Details than AutoCAD - but you need to know how to use Chief's capabilities to get those results.

Unfortunately, it seems like annoation sets are now being viewed as a solution to problems that they were never intended to handle.

Doug,

If you make it work a certain way then that's the way it's going to be used - even if you didn't intend it to be used that way.

Currently, the quickest way to get the desired Layerset, Defaults & CAD Layer is to select an Annoset that has those settings.  The unfortunate part is that it's too much control in the wrong spot.  Consequently it results in a need for a Layerset for almost every Annoset.  It also means that we have to have an Annoset for each scale.  That's a lot of complexity and not really that easy to set up.

Added to that is the fact that we have to have Defaults for the various annotation objects for each scale and Text Styles for each scale and you wind up with a very large matrix of possibilities.  Naturally that leads to confusion and frustration.

Active Layerset is very simply what happens when the Layerset specified for the Current Annoset has been changed by the user.  IOW, it's not the Default Layerset for that Annoset.

We have the ability to change things on the fly.  Annosets have made it easier to get everything with one click (actually 2 clicks) but the implementation has complicated things in other ways.  It can be simpler. 

Larry,

If you could give a simple explanation of how you use them - I could be more specific in addressing your concerns.  Without knowing how your use is unique, I can't agree or disagree with you. 

It could work both ways.  But IMNSHO Annosets are a silly way to deal with non-scale graphics (printed text size, etc.).  With a fairly simple amount of programming the Defaults for these things could be changed to be specified in "Paper aka Print" size.  Once that's done, there is absolutely no need for Annosets and also no need for separate Defaults for different scales.

This is a classic case of LESS IS MORE!

Wouldn't it be great if we could simply select a Layerset and have everything standardized.  As an example:

Select a Layerset - Just the Layers we want displayed and all Annotation Defaulted to 1/8" Chief Blueprint, etc.

We would have only 1 set of Defaults for each type of Annotation Object, very few Layersets, no Annosets.

Scott,

See the Poll I posted in the suggestions forum.  FWIW, in the Annoset dbx there is the setting for Current CAD Layer which sets what layer CAD objects will be created on.  I like this because it makes it possible to create basic CAD Objects (Lines, Arcs, Rectangles, etc) on a specific Layer depending on what type of drawing I'm working on.  However, it's not a scale issue and as such I don't think it should be controled by Layerset vs Annoset.

IAE, I agree with you that a modification of the system should be undertaken to make Layersets KING and in fact eliminate Annosets entirely.

As an alternative system, what about the following:

1.  Move Current CAD Layer from the Annoset dbx to the Layerset dbx.

2.  Move Dimension Defaults -> Locate Objects from the Annoset dbx to the Layerset dbx

3.  Add Annoset to the Layerset dbx

4.  Remove Layerset from the Annoset dbx

So the Annoset would only set the Defaults for Dimensions, Ridh Text, Text, Callouts, Markers & Arrows.  The Layerset would control everything related to the Display and the settings for CAD Layer and Locate Objects for Dimensioning.

This would essentially eliminate the need for any Annoset other than those for different scales.  It would mean that Layersets would be needed for each scale of each drawing type, but for most drawing types there are a maximum of 3-4 scales and in many cases only 1 scale. 

Then, if all those settings in Defaults were changed so that they were independent of scale (IOW - Paper Space Sizes) then the Annosets could be eliminated altogether.

Maybe Doug would like to comment on the above  

1.  Did you select the option "Inserts into Countertop"?

2.  Did you adjust the "Y" & "Z" Origins?

So, using your scenario you would:

1.  Select a Layerset

2.  Select a CAD Layer

3.  Select a generic Scale Annoset (1:100)

4.  Select the Dimension Defautls that go with your Layerset

Current system option:

1.  Select a generic Scale Annnoset (1:100)

2.  Select a Layerset

3.  Select a CAD Layer

4.  Select the Dimension Defautls that go with your Layerset

My method and what you are doing at this time:

1.  Select a Scale and Discipline specific Annoset

     Current CAD Layer and Layerset and all Defaults are automatically as they should be.

There are many possible ways of getting to the same point.

1GB onboad video  memory is pretty low.  I wouldn't accept anything less than 2GB - but if you look at my specs you'll see that I have 3GB on my system.  Even my Laptop has 3GB.

Perry,

1.  Do you use almost exclusively 1/4" scale?

2.  Do you do much in the way of Interior Elevations?

3.  Do you select the Annoset and then separately select the Layerset and Current CAD Layer?

If you answered yes to #1 and no to #2 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

If you answered yes to #3 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

Try turning off shadows.  If your video card doesn't have enough onboard memory it will be a problem with them on.

Scott,

If you want to do a workshop........

Let's see if we can set up a convenient time.  The next week is pretty jammed but the following week I can make some time - let me know.

Scott, 

Show me your Layerset for a case where the Layerset is scale specific.

What Layers do not use the Defaults?

Are your Annosets all scale specific?

IOW, do you have your Annosets using the correct Default Settings per scale for:

   Dimensions

   Rich Text

   Text

   Callouts

   Markers

   Arrows

and do your Layersets stick with the Defaults for Text Style?

Scott,

You are in fact missing something.  The Annoset is responsible for the Text size because it uses a Defaults.  IOW:

For 1"=10' you have one set of Defaults that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc. 

For 1"=20' you have another set of Defauts that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

For 1"=20' you have one set of Defaults that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

For 1"=60' you have another set of Defauts that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

In the Site Plan Layerset everything is set to use Defaults.  Do not customize the Text in the Layerset.

So for Site Plans you need 4 Annosets and only 1 Layerset

Same thing for Floor Plans.  You only need one Architectural Floor Plan Layerset, one for Structural, etc.

I only use 3 different scales for Floor Plans (1/8", 1/4" & 1/2") but I have Architectural, Structural, Electrical, etc.

For Architectural Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

For Structural Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

For Electrical Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

Annosets specify the Defaults that control the size of Annotations

Layersets specify what's displayed - and anything that you don't want to adhere to Defaults.

Another note for Scott:

I do have (like you) an Annoset for almost every Layerset.  But there are a some Layersets for which I do not have a specific Annoset.  All_On, All_Off, Perspective Camera Views, etc.

Perhaps you should take another look at the Layersets to see if you really need that many.  I try not to have separate Layersets for different scales, so I have more Annosets, but fewer Layersets. 

IAE, I agree with you that it's going to be a different set of needs for different users.  My document was - as I said - something I did for myself to clarify my understanding of how it currently works and what works for me.  It has allowed me to simplify my own system but there is still quite a bit of complexity.

One thing that I have done sometimes is use different Layersets when sending the same CAD Window to Layout.  For example, I send Kitchen Interiors to Layout showing Cabinets, Appliances, etc and then use another Layerset to send just the MEP connections which are dimesioned so the trades know where the connections need to be on the walls.

Scott,

To address your comment on which should be in control:

1.  Annosets should have just one purpose - control annotation per scale (Text, Dimensions. Callouts, Markers, Arrows) so that sizes are consistent

2.  Layersets OTOH have the job of fine tuning the Display according to the Type of Drawing.

If "Current CAD Layer" were moved to the "Layerset Definition" then the two systems could be used independently from one another. 

OTOH, I don't think it would do that much good to make Layersets trigger Annosets because it would simply result in more Layersets because you would need a duplicate Layerset for each scale.  ie:

1/8" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/8" Scale Plan Annoset

1/4" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/4" Scale Plan Annoset

1/2" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/2" Scale Plan Annoset

vs the current system which is just the opposite.  The key element that makes this still complex is that of Dimension Defaults.  The items to be dimensioned vary from Drawing Type so we still need separate Annosets for not only each scale, but also for each Drawing Type.

The only way I can see to avoid this conundrum would be to make the dimensionable object settings be controlled via the Layerset - perhaps another column like "Text Style"