smorris Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I made a mistake and originally posted this in another conversation about the Materials List. I thought it to be relevant, but most of the discussion is on accurate quantities, accurate modeling and not pricing, so I'm posting here. I need to verify if I'm doing something wrong, if anyone has time to run a quick test. In the attached picture, select any wall, open it's Components dbx (Edit Toolbar) and plug in a price of $6.03, in the location shown. Close the Components dbx using OK. Once closed, reopen the Components dbx and see if the $6.03 price is still correct. It's changing the price for me and I need to see if it's happening to anyone else, or just on my end. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Sam, I tried this in X7 and the price remains the same. OTOH, if you change the wall length it still stays the same because it is just setting the price of one of the materials of the wall (per sq.ft.). This is not the appropriate way to set the price of a wall because you would need to do it for each wall in the Plan. It could be appropriate for remodel projects where you don't want to price existing walls, etc. Normally it should be done in the Materials List for the individual components and updated to the Master List so it can be used to update any Materials List in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks Joe. That was only for an example and I certainly don't do it that way. In my program, not only walls (General walls priced by the ft), but any symbol (per each) that I give a price of 6.03, 3.03, etc., reverses the .03 and makes it .30..........meaning my 6.03 will change to 6.30 and my 3.03 will change to 3.30. This is only after saving the price, then reopening the Components dbx, or generate a Materials List. However, if your's is not changing prices, then I have something wrong in my program, but I can't imagine what it is.........Does the same in the Master List. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution Joe_Carrick Posted February 28, 2015 Solution Share Posted February 28, 2015 Sam, Actually, it does change. That's a bug that should be reported to CA. It only happens when the first digit to the right of the decimal is 0. I will call support on Monday and report it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks for your help Joe. It was reported in X6 (several times). However, I believe most people had rather have the quantities correct, some to have no Materials List at all, but pricing doesn't seem to matter, or would have been discussed prior to now. Personally, I think this should be corrected with an update in X6 as well. X6, to me, is not a completed version, without this correction...........or remove the Materials List entirely. This update should be available to all X6 users, whether current with their SSA, or not. In regards to the other thread dealing with the Materials List, each person must define what a Materials List is to them. Works completely for some, partially works for others, doesn't work at all for the rest.......Then define what accurate means.. My definition of a Materials List, is "everything included in the construction of a project", down to the last nail, unless stated otherwise. My definition of "accurate" is "correct, dead-on, exact, precise, proper, spot-on, and true". This Materials List doesn't meet my definitions. Currently, users are taking a chance using the Materials List, as shown by improper pricing. Shows how important the Materials List is to most users. I'm fortunate to have this program, but I guarantee I would never have bought it, if I had known of the Materials List problems. Best I remember, the Materials List doesn't calculate underlayment for roofing materials. Can it be improved? Yes, but never will be until users speak up and not except it as is. I'm not seeing that happen, but I would at least like to get this pricing fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWdesign Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Not meaning to be a jerk about this, but hey Sam, if you're depending on CA (whatever version) to generate a materials list and cost for you, welp...sorry about that. That's not Chief's long suit - personally, I'd as soon they got rid of that "capability". For what it's worth, I've tried/used other software (Envisioneer comes immediately to mind), that claims to calculate such lists/costs as their strong point - they're no better. Or they take longer to "set up/maintain" than they're worth. As as a professional designer/estimator with 40+ yrs of experience, there's not a program out there that I'd trust to give anything more than a "budget" estimate. There's just too many variables. What are the code requirements (in your area)? What are the common framing/finishing practices (in your area)? What are your (specific) builder's practices? What are today's (not yesterday's, or last week's) commodity item prices? What finishes do you intend to use - and what are their costs? See what I mean? My definition of a Materials List, is "everything included in the construction of a project", down to the last nail, unless stated otherwise. My definition of "accurate" is "correct, dead-on, exact, precise, proper, spot-on, and true". Not gonna happen - period, end of story. Long story short - if you need an exact (or as close as possible) estimate, you need to enlist the aid of a local professional. To expect Chief's software writers to do that for you is just plain unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 All I want is the pricing to be fixed, which I think it should. And, as I mentioned above and you confirmed, "That's not Chief's long suit - personally, I'd as soon they got rid of that "capability", is the reason the Materials List will continue to be a low priority. I get it. Don't like it, but understand what people want, that use this program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWdesign Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 All I want is the pricing to be fixed, which I think it should. And, as I mentioned above and you confirmed, "That's not Chief's long suit - personally, I'd as soon they got rid of that "capability", is the reason the Materials List will continue to be a low priority. I get it. Don't like it, but understand what people want, that use this program. On the one hand, I hear ya - at least as far as quantities are concerned. That'd make my life (as an estimator) a LOT easier. And there ARE standards for many such things - how many nails in a sheet or sidewall sheathing, for example. Trouble is twofold, at least. For starters, many of the "standards" (building code minimum requirements are a GREAT example) are set so low that NO reputable builder adheres strictly to them. Those requirements are just too lax. Nor do I design to them, for the same reason. I'll "over-design", thank you very much. My customers seem to agree... To top that off, there are as many ways to tackle a specific "building issue" as there are builders doing it. How do you "guesstimate" waste factors, for instance? A straight-forward simple roof is going to generate a lot less waste than a particularly cut-up one. That's why I said to enlist the help of a local estimator. A good one (I consider myself to be one such, and apparently my boss agrees, since I still have a job) will know the particular builders and their practices, and can estimate accordingly. The "science" just ain't that exact, there's a pretty big bit of "art" involved. Which is why the CA programmers (or anyone else) could never be expected to be able to cover all the bases. If they did/could, the program would become so complex that no one could use it! And that's just the "what to use" part of the equation. "How much does it cost" is even more unpredictable. Many building products - lumber & sheathing especially - are commodity items. Prices change DAILY, even hourly! The ONLY way I can lock your price, let's say for a project to begin in May, is to buy a futures contract on today's market. That'll be 2 rail-car loads of studs, and you don't begin to need that many. Same for lineal 2x materials. Same for sheet goods. How many houses are you gonna build??? Sure, the company I work for publishes item pricing. It'll be good until I have to buy the next batch. Then it WILL change. Same way gas prices change from day to day. Not saying you have to like it, but it is what it is, and it's not going to change regardless of whether you like it or not. Even "non-commodity" items - siding, windows, doors, trim, etc... change pricing periodically. A "typical" house has probably something on the order of 15,000+ different items. Oh, and they can be vastly different items, from house to house. Do YOU want to maintain that database of pricing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 At this point, I'm not concerned what is done about future improvements to the Materials List. I'm only wanting something fixed, that is not correct. However, I guess that could be said about any bug, but I would have thought pricing would be a major concern, but maybe not if you're only talking about a few cents. You make good points above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Personally, I think this should be corrected with an update in X6 as well. X6, to me, is not a completed version, without this correction...........or remove the Materials List entirely. This update should be available to all X6 users, whether current with their SSA, or not. Sam: This will never happen X7 is the "update" for X6 not saying it is right - just what CA does and will continue doing Personally, I think CA is right, they can't keep applying "fixes" to an older version if you have SSA you get the latest version with all the "fixes" that are included X7 is going "official" soon so if you send this as a "bug" it may be "fixed" in an "update" to X7 then again - maybe not .... Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Lew, This was reported each time there was an update to X6 and still hasn't been fixed in X7. I understand they can't keep applying "fixes", to earlier versions, but this is something that did work, at one time, is now broken and they've been sent ample reports. I would venture to say, if the program was giving wrong dimensions, it wouldn't be tolerated by the users. How important is correct pricing in a Materials List? Being as no one has complained in an entire version, it is not important at all. I gave my opinion earlier as to what I thought/think is the right thing to do. You disagree and I have no problem with that. We both gave our opinions and I suspect yours is more accurate, as to what will occur..........Joe is sending the report and my thanks to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 That particular bug is in X7 Beta too I can confirm for you Sam when you report it. Like many I have to submit my quantites to Suppliers and Subs for every Project for Pricing as there is no way to maintain a "current" database of pricing even for them as CW stated but the fact that the ML doesn't calculate quantities in a real world way makes me leery of using it now. Like you I originally brought the software for 2 reasons the ML and the 3D imagery to help "sell" jobs to Clients , so like you I am disappointed in the ML aspect as I had hoped it would be a good time saver, at least for Ballpark/Budget Estimates , I don't do new homes , so it it rare that I do a fixed price Contract these days , as ,as CW pointed out there are way to many variables. Have a look on the other thread Sam at the PDF I posted , I think like me its more like what you expected of the ML. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Have a look on the other thread Sam at the PDF I posted , I think like me its more like what you expected of the ML. Thanks Mick. Yes, that is more what I would expect. A Supplier/Lumber Yard can actually read this list. I prefer using LF, instead of Ft, too, so you don't need to ask whether it's Bd Ft, Sq Ft, or LF. You would think Ft automatically means LF, but not always. Depends on the customer. My approach, for applying the correct pricing, is coming from the Suppliers end and not from the User's end. Most Users (?) get their Supplier to quote the job, from quantities listed. That's another reason why Users didn't discover the program was pricing wrong, or maybe they just didn't care. However, if the Supplier has this program, then he would, or had best have, the correct pricing. Odds of that happening is pretty slim, I suspect, but would surely rule them out as potential customers...........Thanks again for your reply, Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I have not tried that particular "program" but it has/does a priced version too , not sure how current it is, you would need to email the author http://thetakeoffdoctor.com/program.html Priced PDF link http://thetakeoffdoctor.com/files/TTD%20Instant%20Estimator%202010.05%20-%20Sample%20-%20Takeoff%20with%20Prices.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Sam: have checked out Planswift as a companion to Chief ??? Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I have not tried that particular "program" but it has/does a priced version too , not sure how current it is, you would need to email the author http://thetakeoffdoctor.com/program.html Priced PDF link http://thetakeoffdoctor.com/files/TTD%20Instant%20Estimator%202010.05%20-%20Sample%20-%20Takeoff%20with%20Prices.pdf Thanks again Mick. I'll give them a look. Lew, I have looked at Planswift and seems to be a good program. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 ............I will call support on Monday and report it. Joe files the report Monday. Bug is fixed and updated by at least today (Friday), may have been sooner. Joe is the man with clout. Thank you very much Joe and my thanks to Chief Architect, for the quick response. I don't see an update for X6, but as Lew mentioned, it's doubtful. Hopefully this particular bug won't hurt users that try to sell their X6 version, if that information is known. Being I will eventually get X7, X6 is not a problem for me. Just happy to see it corrected, even though it probably would amount to very little........Thanks All! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 X7 came out Wed. so someone got on that bug quick thanks for pointing it out. I would hope they do a small program update for stuff like that in X6. I guess you don't have SSA? otherwise you'd have X7 already , perhaps you can renew? , might be cheaper than the upgrade ($645) to X7. http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/upgrade.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smorris Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 X7 came out Wed. so someone got on that bug quick thanks for pointing it out. I would hope they do a small program update for stuff like that in X6. I guess you don't have SSA? otherwise you'd have X7 already , perhaps you can renew? , might be cheaper than the upgrade ($645) to X7. http://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/upgrade.html You're welcome Mick. The bug fix was quick. Credit due to Joe and Chief's response. Shows we're dealing with a good company. I've been out of pocket and just saw the update today. It would be nice if they did a small update for X6. I do understand about not going back to previous versions and fixing most bugs, but this one kind of makes the X6 Material List inaccurate, if you plug in prices, even though not by much......We'll see. My SSA ran out back in Sept. and I'll renew before long. It hit me at the wrong time, but shouldn't be much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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