craboulas

Ray Trace: Env. Light Inside?

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Hi guys,

 

I'm struggling to get a good set of ray trace settings for an interior view, during the day. I'd like a natural look of a well lit interior, with nice sunshine casting through the windows, and good environmental light outside.

 

What I am finding, is that with environment on, I get bizarre light bleeding inside the rooms. Basically, it seems like sunlight is shining out from under the furniture. This is worst when the environment is set to a color, but still has an effect when set to sky. Using the sky setting produces an outside light level very near environment being off.

 

Any ideas? 

 

No environment

no-env.jpg

 

 

Environment=sky

env-sky.jpg

 

 

Environment=color

env-color.jpg

 

 

RT set.png

 

Photon mapping enabled.

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I don't know if this helps, but if you use the Ray Trace Assistant and set it up for an interior scene, these are the lighting settings Chief generates:

lighting.thumb.PNG.8579c429fe4e8937e5f5d7ebaff08203.PNG

 

Notice that the environment light is disabled, and the Direct Sunlight Intensity is 5 (yours is 50). Also make sure Photon Mapping is enabled.

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Thanks rlacklore.

 

It makes sense that the default interior view settings disable environment, because it has a pretty big performance hit. However, with it disabled, areas outside that are not in direct sunlight look almost black. This is not natural.

 

I went ahead and used the assistant to create a fresh start for hq-interior. Here is the comparison between those settings (direct sun=5) and changing only direct sun to 50. I think the higher direct sun value looks better and more natural (might back it down a touch), but this still doesn't explain the environment lighting weirdness.

 

 

DS=5

ds5.thumb.jpg.a95cc7f4da67246aa6b8b4018d360ac6.jpg

 

 

DS=50

ds50.thumb.jpg.c150e9d94388b203720edf3cd103e8a9.jpg

 

 

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These might help , one is from CA a couple of years ago ...it came with Sample plan Called Hillside Contemporary I think, which may have been an Online Seminar Plan?    I just did a search and found the Plan is still in the Samples Gallery too....

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/products/samples.html

 

The other is RayTracing info I have copy and pasted from the Forum as I found it over the last few years.

 

Raytrace Settings.pdf

Ray Trace Tips From CA_2015.pdf

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Thanks Mick - those are useful resources.

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13 hours ago, rlackore said:

Thanks Mick - those are useful resources.

 

HI Robert.....If you download the Hillside Plan you actually get the sample Colours in the 1st PDF to add to your Library Too...

 

Capture.JPG

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Thanks for the links guys, but they don't really speak to the issue I am having. Why is "environment" having such a strong effect inside?

 

 

No environment:

 

No-env.thumb.jpg.db429b12ddf6583ce1a1a3b280fa1f32.jpg

 

Environment, white-color, 0.1

 

Env-0.1.thumb.jpg.85b843de18e5837406f59a4444c27574.jpg

 

Environment, white-color, 1

 

Env-1.thumb.jpg.efd715cbe92c007e60514b29857bcdbb.jpg

 

Environment, white-color, 10

 

Env-10.thumb.jpg.47eb416f3ca30f21e091004aae39cb3c.jpg

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Suggest you post the plan. There are a number of factors that can effect how a particular lighting effect functions. Lights are not necessarily independent of each other and as such adjusting one light can effect how another light appears. I do not use the environment light very often but it might somehow be related to the direct sunlight intensity. The upper ambient occlusion setting will certainly effect it. I would also not be too concerned about the actual setting level, if 10 is too much then set it at 8 or whatever gives you the effect you are looking for. I really do not give much credence to those intensity levels, better to consider them more from a relative perspective. A 100% light will be twice the intensity of a 50% light and as such a 10% light will be twice the intensity of a 5% light.

 

In the example below all of the interior lights are at 10% intensity or lower, some are as low as 2%.

 

593bfc3ae850c_Untitled36_1200_lzn.thumb.jpg.d66d9f9f9aef8b2a32f5452cd8506bfd.jpg

 

Keep in mind that you can over light your scene with too many high intensity lights, it's not much different than taking a way over exposed pic with a digital camera.

 

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21 hours ago, craboulas said:

Thanks for the links guys, but they don't really speak to the issue I am having. Why is "environment" having such a strong effect inside?

 

 

 

 the Tips I posted above recommend not using Environment light.... but things may have changed since X7 and X8  as I think Ambient Occlusion and Bloom have larger effects now in X9 too. But I'm no expert , which I why I look at threads like this....

 

If you haven't finished the Model you can get some weird effect too , eg no basement/foundation may cause the light glow under your furniture in the OP.

 

 

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On 6/10/2017 at 9:07 AM, TheKitchenAbode said:

Suggest you post the plan. There are a number of factors that can effect how a particular lighting effect functions. Lights are not necessarily independent of each other and as such adjusting one light can effect how another light appears. I do not use the environment light very often but it might somehow be related to the direct sunlight intensity. The upper ambient occlusion setting will certainly effect it. I would also not be too concerned about the actual setting level, if 10 is too much then set it at 8 or whatever gives you the effect you are looking for. I really do not give much credence to those intensity levels, better to consider them more from a relative perspective. A 100% light will be twice the intensity of a 50% light and as such a 10% light will be twice the intensity of a 5% light.

 

In the example below all of the interior lights are at 10% intensity or lower, some are as low as 2%.

 

593bfc3ae850c_Untitled36_1200_lzn.thumb.jpg.d66d9f9f9aef8b2a32f5452cd8506bfd.jpg

 

Keep in mind that you can over light your scene with too many high intensity lights, it's not much different than taking a way over exposed pic with a digital camera.

 

 

 

 

I don't see how any of this is applicable.

 

I have isolated the effect that environmental light is giving, and frankly, it seems broken. The setting that gives me an acceptable look of the outside lighting (through a window), destroys all the interior shadows.

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21 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

 the Tips I posted above recommend not using Environment light.... but things may have changed since X7 and X8  as I think Ambient Occlusion and Bloom have larger effects now in X9 too. But I'm no expert , which I why I look at threads like this....

 

If you haven't finished the Model you can get some weird effect too , eg no basement/foundation may cause the light glow under your furniture in the OP.

 

 


 

 

That's a good point Kbird. This model does however have a foundation (set to update automatically). If those who use the ray tracing a lot recommend against using that setting, I think the devs should dig in and fix it. It seems very poor practice to be forced into creating a bunch of additional light sources outside, just to approximate what an integral feature should accomplish with one click.

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18 hours ago, craboulas said:

 

 

 

I don't see how any of this is applicable.

 

I have isolated the effect that environmental light is giving, and frankly, it seems broken. The setting that gives me an acceptable look of the outside lighting (through a window), destroys all the interior shadows.

 

I don't have enough information about the environment light to say whether it is functioning properly or not. However, as one increases the exterior light level then it would be natural for the interior ambient light level to also increase and as such any interior shadows created by the interior lights would diminish. Any time that I have delved deeper into the principles the Ray Trace function is based upon it always seems to attempt replicate how light reacts in the real world. This of course may not be conducive to the look you are attempting to create. Photographers are faced with this issue all of the time which is why they use a variety of techniques to adjust and alter their pics. In a true professional photoshoot they would set up additional lights to compliment or compensate for natural lighting deficiencies and then use post production software to perform additional alterations and corrections in order to obtain the look they desire. You have the ability to do this in CA by adding additional lights, that is precisely what those 3D lights are intended for. I'm not saying this is the best approach, just saying it is how this program currently works.

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Maybe this technique may help you.

 

Dark Exterior

593ea9ba6af50_Enviroment5_lzn-1.thumb.jpg.ca0eef8a3c2015f01483b48d55026795.jpg

Bright Exterior

593ea9d1758f8_Enviroment6_lzn.thumb.jpg.38e1287171056f359c1be069cb971483.jpg

 

If you flip between the two pics you will see that the exterior brightness changes significantly but the interior light and shadows remain the same. All light settings, including the direct sun are the same for both. To obtain this look I took the 3D Backdrop used in the dark exterior shot and overexposed it in a photo editor and then imported it back into CA and used it as the 3D backdrop. Took about 15 seconds and I did not have to play with any light settings.

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Craboulas - I believe I have found the solution to you environment light issue. You not only need to have a foundation under your room but the foundation must have a floor in it. That should prevent the light from bleeding through from below. Seems to be the same as having to have a roof over your room to prevent that exterior sun light bleeding. Give it a try to see if it resolves your problem.

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19 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Craboulas - I believe I have found the solution to you environment light issue. You not only need to have a foundation under your room but the foundation must have a floor in it. That should prevent the light from bleeding through from below. Seems to be the same as having to have a roof over your room to prevent that exterior sun light bleeding. Give it a try to see if it resolves your problem.

 

 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!

 

Here are my foundation structure settings. It appears as though it has a floor and that I don't have a choice:

 

 

foundation.png

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I'm gonna beat the dead horse: post the plan.

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I really think you need to post the plan. I have run a number of test scenes using a vary wide range of direct sun & environment levels without any problem. This one has the direct sun at 50 and the environment at 50, everything is fine. Shadows are good and no light bleeding.

593fe019a8ef2_Enviroment8_lzn.thumb.jpg.3db223738ab8565a65598c08c9effe69.jpg

 

Please post the plan!!!

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Here's an example of a Ray Trace work flow.

 

This scene uses only 5 recessed lights and 2 3D lights. The only Ray Trace settings are Ambient Occlusion 0 min, 1.5 max, Direct Sun 7 with Photon Mapping on. The image properties are set to default. This ran a 100 passes in about 17 minutes.

 

594a6c7a74276_Bright2_Default_PS.thumb.jpg.655ce70541a9bc8037a0b28dc2a13192.jpg

 

The output above has a strong color cast and is under lit. using the Ray Trace Image Properties I adjusted the Color Correction and Saturation to eliminate the color cast. Then adjusted the Intensity, Brightness and Contrast to brighten things up.

 

594a6ca60a0e0_Bright2_Default_PS1.thumb.jpg.39221bb47828ad7f3c9eacf9c3ca48c9.jpg

 

The scene is looking reasonable but seems a bit flat. Using Photoshop I increased the light intensity within the window area and added a lighting effect around the table lamp. Made a few other minor contrast and toning adjustments. The Photoshop techniques I used were very basic and took maybe 5 - 10 minutes, much faster than going back into CA and playing with the lights.

 

594a6cdfd3593_Bright2_lzn_PS6.thumb.jpg.227a4a50b20fdbbc0646026379f6c8c8.jpg

 

This process is the similar to what a professional photographer does with every pic they take.

 

Just a note for Craboulas, this should look familiar, I just dressed up your plan a bit.

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