Ray Tracing

[NeilofOZ]

Graham,

 

The PBR looks OK, but colours are still muted, which is why I have stuck to exporting the "Standard Render" for clients.

Not sure if we retained the Emissive effects as it doesn't look like it, especially on the Tomato Logo, which is critical for the visual effect.

Have tried so many lighting options, even flooded the screen with so much light that it nearly obliterated the image, but in PBR, it

still comes out muted like any lesser light source settings.

 

Still, your PBR is better than mine, is it possible to clip some pics of you settings for the:-

1. Active Camera

2. Technique Options

3. Additional Lighting Sources

4. Ray Trace Options

 

Have attached a copy of my PBR which ran all night, not much difference to one I did with 100 passes.

It seems that some members use a third party programme for enhancement, but I'm not up to that standard

and still struggling with the C.A.  

 

Think I have solved the problem of "Blackouts", when I checked "Global Illumination" and switched from Standard Render

to PBR, it appeared immediately. 

 

 

 

  

[TheKitchenAbode]

12 minutes ago, NeilofOZ said:

Graham,

 

The PBR looks OK, but colours are still muted, which is why I have stuck to exporting the "Standard Render" for clients.

Not sure if we retained the Emissive effects as it doesn't look like it, especially on the Tomato Logo, which is critical for the visual effect.

Have tried so many lighting options, even flooded the screen with so much light that it nearly obliterated the image, but in PBR, it

still comes out muted like any lesser light source settings.

 

Still, your PBR is better than mine, is it possible to clip some pics of you settings for the:-

1. Active Camera

2. Technique Options

3. Additional Lighting Sources

4. Ray Trace Options

 

Have attached a copy of my PBR which ran all night, not much difference to one I did with 100 passes.

It seems that some members use a third party programme for enhancement, but I'm not up to that standard

and still struggling with the C.A.  

 

Think I have solved the problem of "Blackouts", when I checked "Global Illumination" and switched from Standard Render

to PBR, it appeared immediately. 

 

 

 

  

Here is another PBR where I have made further refinements to the lighting and materials. I'm not on my main system but can zip the plan and post it tomorrow if you think it would be of help.

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

If you just want to punch it up then here's the same scene adjusted in Windows Photo App.

[NeilofOZ]

Graham,

 

Yes please, it looks pretty good, prefer the first one you did.

 

Obviously the "Emissive" effect is still missing, is this because the general lighting has washed out this element. 

It's one reason why I like the Standard Render view, see attached.

 

Regards Neil. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

The emissive effect just depends on how high a setting you use. What's more important is to get the overall lighting correct and then you can go into the material properties and weak them.

[NeilofOZ]

Thanks Graham and much appreciated. 

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, NeilofOZ said:

Have attached a copy of my PBR which ran all night, not much difference to one I did with 100 passes.

It seems that some members use a third party programme for enhancement, but I'm not up to that standard

and still struggling with the C.A.

 

 

You are still mixing up PBR (10-60 secs ) and Ray Tracing (10 mins to 24hrs and hard on the CPU) , and alot of the time material and lighting adjustments for one view don't work well in the Other. There are a number of Forum Users who use Lumion and other Rendering Engines like Thea but they are out of the scope of most Users due to Cost which is why PBR has had a sudden large switch by many... ie it's good enough , for most people and will get better as CA improves Materials like Glass for it and material properties so reflections work better.

 

M.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, NeilofOZ said:

Graham,

 

Yes please, it looks pretty good, prefer the first one you did.

 

Obviously the "Emissive" effect is still missing, is this because the general lighting has washed out this element. 

It's one reason why I like the Standard Render view, see attached.

 

Regards Neil. 

 

The Tomato Sign looks good but the Ceiling and Menu signs are totally washed out due to the high Emmisive values ( ie where is the text in the menus?) and you can't tell there are 6-8 recessed lights up there , so you may have to pick you poison on this plan or light the Tomato sign another way perhaps.

 

M.

[NeilofOZ]

Mick,

 

Gotcha on the poison bit, imagine I will improve as we go along.

 

The text on the menus have been "white washed" out do to the Emissive value being high, not a problem at this stage 

as the project is still in preliminary and concept stage, but probably I need to separate the images and the text, so I can

regulate the Emissive values independently.  

[TheKitchenAbode]

Here is the scene with a higher emissive setting on the signage. This is a PBR not a Ray Trace. I know I'm being repetitive, but you need to get your main lighting correct before playing with the emissive settings.

 

 

What might help is to Google say "Food Courts" and find a real photo to use as inspiration and a reference for lighting and materials. Here's an example.

[NeilofOZ]

Mick,

 

Your last PBR image looked great, but mate I have played around with lighting till the cows come home and I got nothing like you have done, however I did

lower the light data on ceiling lights and ramped up the Emissive values quite a bit on the menu pics and finally got illumination on these, so a good result there.

 

Interesting that the Starbucks sign is exactly the style I have on the tomato logo, I ramped up the Emissive 130,000 value on the rear section and got the

the effect I was looking for, I was changing  Emissive values in digits of ten instead of tens of thousands.

 

You must be modifying the "Material Definitions" on all other finishes, so I wouldn't mind getting an understanding on what you did on the timber and wall tiling,

is that possible.

 

Regards Neil.

 

  

 

  

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, NeilofOZ said:

Mick,

 

Your last PBR image looked great, but mate I have played around with lighting till the cows come home and I got nothing like you have done, however I didlower the light data on ceiling lights and ramped up the Emissive values quite a bit on the menu pics and finally got illumination on these, so a good result there.

 

Interesting that the Starbucks sign is exactly the style I have on the tomato logo, I ramped up the Emissive 130,000 value on the rear section and got the

the effect I was looking for, I was changing  Emissive values in digits of ten instead of tens of thousands.

 

You must be modifying the "Material Definitions" on all other finishes, so I wouldn't mind getting an understanding on what you did on the timber and wall tiling,

is that possible.

 

Regards Neil.

 

  

 

  

 

 

While I would like to claim credit for the image above it was made by Graham (the resident PBR Guru, as I am sure you know)

 

My guess on the Tile and wood finishes would be a simple BumpMap......the Cheat is to use the same texture file in the BumpMap box as in the Texture Box above.

 

 

Mick.

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

10 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

 

While I would like to claim credit for the image above it was made by Graham (the resident PBR Guru, as I am sure you know)

 

My guess on the Tile and wood finishes would be a simple BumpMap......the Cheat is to use the same texture file in the BumpMap box as in the Texture Box above.

 

 

Mick.

 

 

 

Thanks Mick, but not sure about the "Guru" status, still experimenting like so many others are.

 

Yes, the tile and wood are just using the Texture File for Bump Mapping. It's fast and easy and though not as good as a custom map the results aren't too bad.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Neil - I'm uncertain that your approach is going to result in a satisfactory rendering. Your focus on that sign is premature as would be making any material adjustments such as adding bump maps. None of these functions will correct or compensate for improperly balanced/adjusted primary lighting. How a material looks according to it's property settings and the bump effect is dependent upon how the material is lit.

 

Concerning emissive settings, as you can see in your last render pushing the emissive setting is washing out the Red tomato logo. Yes you have a glow, but now the main logo is undermined. If you look at the Starbucks example the main logo is enhanced by the backlighting not undermined.

 

Just a recommendation, but you should go into the materials and kill all of the emissive settings, turn off all of the lights except the primary recessed lights in the overhead ceiling plan/soffit. Now turn off all but one of them and adjust that one to look proper. I know in your original posted plan you had up to 5 light sources applied to those recessed lights, delete all but one, you just need one downward spot light source. Use the intensity, angle and drop rate to get the light to cast properly. Once you are comfortable with that one you can then replicate it's settings to the other recessed lights. Don't expect the recessed lights to light the entire scene, they are spot lights and are intended to provide localized lighting. For general overall ambient lighting you can use some 3D area point lights, but only after the recessed lights are right.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Here's an example where a bit of Photoshop work can significantly boost the realism. Excuse my cropping, just a quick example.

 

Before

 

After

[Kbird1]

8 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Thanks Mick, but not sure about the "Guru" status, still experimenting like so many others are.

 

Did you read what you wrote below ?  .....    me thinks you're "smarter than the average bear"  Yogi  

 

7 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Neil - I'm uncertain that your approach is going to result in a satisfactory rendering. Your focus on that sign is premature as would be making any material adjustments such as adding bump maps. None of these functions will correct or compensate for improperly balanced/adjusted primary lighting. How a material looks according to it's property settings and the bump effect is dependent upon how the material is lit.

 

Concerning emissive settings, as you can see in your last render pushing the emissive setting is washing out the Red tomato logo. Yes you have a glow, but now the main logo is undermined. If you look at the Starbucks example the main logo is enhanced by the backlighting not undermined.

 

Just a recommendation, but you should go into the materials and kill all of the emissive settings, turn off all of the lights except the primary recessed lights in the overhead ceiling plan/soffit. Now turn off all but one of them and adjust that one to look proper. I know in your original posted plan you had up to 5 light sources applied to those recessed lights, delete all but one, you just need one downward spot light source. Use the intensity, angle and drop rate to get the light to cast properly. Once you are comfortable with that one you can then replicate it's settings to the other recessed lights. Don't expect the recessed lights to light the entire scene, they are spot lights and are intended to provide localized lighting. For general overall ambient lighting you can use some 3D area point lights, but only after the recessed lights are right.

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

15 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Did you read what you wrote below ?  .....    me thinks you're "smarter than the average bear"  Yogi  

 

 

 

Would prefer to be Boo-Boo, Yogi was always getting into trouble. Now that I think about it maybe Yogi is a better descriptive.

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Would prefer to be Boo-Boo, Yogi was always getting into trouble. Now that I think about it maybe Yogi is a better descriptive.

 

  I thought I had dibs on Boo-Boo already .....

[NeilofOZ]

Graham,

 

Love your enhancement with Photo Shop, this is obviously way beyond what PBR can do and would require the full P.S. programme to replicate, am I guessing correctly.

 

Still having heaps of issues in getting good lighting, followed you initial starting point and thought I had it, but after i did the servery area, found the external area was totally skewed, every time I tried to add a new light source, it affected the back area and parts of the front, ie dark & light areas, nothing was consistent. In the end I just added some extra lighting to the building ceilings which you can see in the attached.

This facet of CA obviously requires a dedicated lesson and requires some intimate knowledge, to which Iknow nothing. 

Went to our user group meeting a month back and no one had a clear perception on the capabilities of either PBR and or lighting, some people

were even asking me to elaborate, like the blind leading the blind.

 

Played around with logo to, but nothing like the Starbuck effect was achieved. Mind you the pic is an actual photo and would required some detailed knowledge on how to construct the logo and adding the lighting in C.A. I offset/separated/joined both the tomato facing and the rear panel which I applied the Emissive value and nothing was near the Starbuck effect.

 

Have attached copies of the PBR and Standard Render to view.

 

Regards Neil   

 

 

 

 

 

   

Edited November 8, 2018 by NeilofOZ
spacings

[TheKitchenAbode]

Neil - although you are still not satisfied with the PBR results I think the lighting is much improved. You mentioned the effect when you add a light or adjust one that other lit regions also change, this effect is normal when the PBR Camera Exposure is set below a certain threshold. It automatically adjusts to maintain a certain exposure level, think of this as having a digital camera set to Auto Mode, it will evaluate the brightest region in a scene and then adjust other settings according to this to prevent blown out highlights, when doing this the brightest regions lessen and darker regions often become darker.

 

Not sure what your PBR Camera Exposure and Brightness settings are, these two functions are very impactful and it's important to find the right setting for each. For the greatest dynamic range and contrast the Brightness should be as high as possible and the Camera Exposure as low as possible. My starting point is usually with the Brightness set at 100% and the Camera Exposure somewhere near it's default value .18. I then adjust light intensities to look as good as possible under these conditions. If you dislike the Camera Exposure auto adjust effect it can be for practical purposes disengaged by setting the Camera Exposure to 1(maximum) however, if you do this your lights will be way too bright and you will need to drastically reduce their intensity to get things under control.