Base cabinet depth? Why less than 24"?

[GeneDavis]

This isn't a Chief question.  It is about practice and convention, and I am just wondering what others do.  Chief lets the user set whatever cabinet depth one wants.  The out of box defaults are 24" for base cabinets and tall ones, and 12" for wall cabinets.

 

I work with a builder that outsources cabinets, prefers frameless unless his arm is twisted, and the carcase parts are always done at a shop with a CNC router.  Yield is terrible if cabinet depth is 24".  Yield is excellent when it is dialed down to 23-3/8".  Even a sixteenth more in depth above 23-3/8" blows the yield.  It's all about panel size, bit size, something called collar size, but it is what it is.  You want a base cabinet side such that you can nest two across a 49 inch sheet.

 

Frameless or faceframed, base cabs with overlay doors come it at a total depth around 24-1/4", the buildup including doors at 13/16" and bumpers, which means a stock countertop with depth of 25" has a nice 3/4" overhang.

 

The inside depth of a 23-3/8" base cab, built the way we do the backs and nailers, is 22-1/4", which permits nice clearance for the two types of Blum slides we use.  Sink cutouts work OK, and we've experienced no issues with built-in appliances, which mount to the applied frames out front.

 

Tweaking the depth in a kitchen layout is pretty meaningless unless you are dealing with a U-shaped end, and even then it just affects filler widths.

 

So, what do you do?

 

 

[MarkMc]

20 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

So, what do you do?

My work is split between frameless inset almost exclusively, very little framed overlay (only super budget jobs) Some are semi-custom, some custom. Every maker or brand I've dealt with for the last 8 years makes frameless bases 24" deep standard, walls 13 or 13-1/2" standard. Insets bases are the same but one custom house uses 1" face frames so Base 24-1/2. Inset walls run come 13, 13-1/2 and 14" standard depending on who is making them (selling 12" deep inset is inviting trouble) All allow about 1/4" scribe at the back for wanky walls.

Everyone I work with uses computerize panel saws so yield is not an issue with standard cabinet ply, they all do enough volume that it would matter. 

 

Counters-I've put in less than half a dozen  "standard 25" deep" laminate counters in that time (about the same for the seven years prior). Most counters I see are Granite, E-stone, Corian and we do them at 25-1/2 to 26 on overlay; 25" deep counters on insets.

 

Sinks, dishwashers and accessory inserts- A lot of American DW's need 24" depth or they stick out too far, worse if they are paneled (I prefer Euro DWs which are not an issue) Sinks we need enough meat for stone to support itself. Wine coolers get to be an issue as do many cabinet accessories are sized for 24" depth.

 

As to tweaking depth- 75% of American women want an island, most in their kitchen, a few want Tahiti and a couple more will take Manhattan. I use NKBA aisle clearances as a minimum always (except in Manhattan) so there are times where tweaking is needed but if that is the case I'm working with much shallower cabinets than 24 and don't put appliances in the run.

[Alaskan_Son]

For the past 6 or 7 years all our cabinetry has been custom built locally and the vast majority has been face frame.

 

The shop that we used for most of it during that time used a panel saw so waste was negligible.  In other words, 24” was not inefficient.  Having said that, the other shop we use has a CNC machine but I don’t think 24” deep was a problem there either...at least not for face frames.  

 

I think the 24” depth is really only inefficient for CNC shops and even then...mostly just for frameless.  Even if the box is dadoed into the face frame, that’s still only a 23-5/8” panel...MAX.  That leaves 3/4” for router bit loss even for 48” sheet goods.  Plus...some sheet goods can be had in 49” widths so...that brings me back to thinking it’s only CNC shops that don’t use a panel saw that should have that problem, and only when working with 48” sheet goods.  

[Alaskan_Son]

Oh ya, just to be clear, we’ve used all sorts of custom base cabinet depths but the vast majority have been 24”.

[GeneDavis]

Our constraint is due to the frameless design and the fact we're cutting with CNC.  And as I said, even cutting at a panel width of 49 not 48 (49 x 97 being a common panel size) we end up with the 23 and a fraction.

 

I've worked in this cabinetry part of the business, designing and building installations, for quite a bit, and we've used a half dozen different hardware systems.  The drawer slides from Blum, Grass, Hettich, Knape & Vogt, and likely others, the ones that go into a nominal 24-depth basecab, are all in the 21 and a fraction length,  and any of them will work in the 23.375 boxes I've got for the latest project.  Drawerbox lengths are always right around 21 or exactly 21.  So for the basecabs, I'm happy to be doing it efficiently.  

 

Wall cabinets are a different story.  A depth of 13.5 inches is what works nicely for the oversized dishes many people have, and the nesting works out OK when cutting from panel.  Sides, decks, tops, and shelves nest three across, and there are always nailers and stretchers to be cut that pop into the space that's left.  

 

Built-in appliances like oven stacks typically get a cab depth near 26 inches so countertops resolve into them without protruding, and fridge boxes for SubZero-class units go the same.  If you have to suffer some sheet stock loss due to those, it really doesn't matter.  Those are going into a 32-sheet kitchen where money is hardly an object.

[Alaskan_Son]

19 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

Our constraint is due to the frameless design and the fact we're cutting with CNC.  And as I said, even cutting at a panel width of 49 not 48 (49 x 97 being a common panel size) we end up with the 23 and a fraction.

 

I've worked in this cabinetry part of the business, designing and building installations, for quite a bit, and we've used a half dozen different hardware systems.  The drawer slides from Blum, Grass, Hettich, Knape & Vogt, and likely others, the ones that go into a nominal 24-depth basecab, are all in the 21 and a fraction length,  and any of them will work in the 23.375 boxes I've got for the latest project.  Drawerbox lengths are always right around 21 or exactly 21.  So for the basecabs, I'm happy to be doing it efficiently.  

 

Wall cabinets are a different story.  A depth of 13.5 inches is what works nicely for the oversized dishes many people have, and the nesting works out OK when cutting from panel.  Sides, decks, tops, and shelves nest three across, and there are always nailers and stretchers to be cut that pop into the space that's left.  

 

Built-in appliances like oven stacks typically get a cab depth near 26 inches so countertops resolve into them without protruding, and fridge boxes for SubZero-class units go the same.  If you have to suffer some sheet stock loss due to those, it really doesn't matter.  Those are going into a 32-sheet kitchen where money is hardly an object.

 

Sounds like you must be using some relatively large bits to speed up production?  

 

I’m just curious...Are you using a good panel optimization software?  I assume you are, just wondering because I’ve never actually heard anyone mention a notable disparity due to that last 5/8”.

 

Something else I’m wondering too...Around here I don’t know that we can get a lot of hardwood sheet goods in anything other than 4x8 sheets.  Are you saying you lose a full 2-1/4” on all of those too?  That really sounds like a lot of waste.  Seems like adding a panel saw to the mix might pay for itself, no?