Paramount

3D Model Based Design-Build

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I started using Sketchfab as well, thanks DJP for the heads up. Not perfect, but a quick way to illustrate the 3D model for clients. I tried to use the CA 3D viewer once and didn't get it right the time I did try. I also have Snagit which is useful at times, to create short videos based on screen capture.  

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Try this program if you need this kind of capability.....we purchased and use very often.......incredible what you can actually do......

 

http://www.simlab-soft.com/3d-products/simlab-composer-main.aspx

 

(To my remembrance you were using things like Solidworks/Catia........ why not convert to a 3ds or 3dwg and use the files in your solid modeling software.)

 

kevin

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I do this quite often.  What I have found though is that it is more about the interest of the client to want to use the model than the actual modeling itself as to whether it is a worthwhile endeavor.

 

Right now I am actually doing more commercial steel framing than I used to and this has been quite a learning curve using Chief.  What I am finding to be the real issue is not whether a particular program can allow you to visualize the 3D model.  There are many good programs out there.

 

What is more important to me is having the ability to model all of the components quickly and accurately.and then get that accurate model into a form that the end user actually would be willing to use.

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Kevin, awesome software.I like the baking and ability to create high def live 3D models to export to 3D PDFs and downstream users. Would you say the rendering is easier than CA? Looks that way. Who needs RTs when you can have it in live 3D? Who needs Lumina?  I see CA has its own 3D viewer app that can take sections but not in the software and store cameras? Add annotations? 

 

I also work for manufacturing big corporate with very expensive software and teams of pros most can’t afford in small residential design_build. CATIA has no need to import/export to another software and much higher capabilities than CA, there are several license types available for purchase that can be well over $10K and large maintenance fees.

 

The other use for software like Simlab would be for builds and to reduce or eliminate 2D drawings depending on company or 3D PDF only. There are other 3D based modeling techniques used for assemblies or installations on shop floors that could apply to site construction/mass production.

 

Below is a machined beam assembly I just release to many of the same downstream users in construction. These 3D details datasets go to numeric controlled machining, auto-drilling & fastening to attach other details, 3D inspection, we don’t find in residential design_build yet but, it is coming with 3D rapid prototype & perhaps fastening soon. This model is set up a certain way to do that. This is a pic of my live 3D PDF. Also not shown is a combined PDF with the materials list, 2D camera shots as required if at all.

 

Flag Notes: Annotations are defined in the specification tree or in 3D PDF associated by toolbar function? You see when I select flag note (FN19) in the live PDF the track geometry liner highlights to magenta. This is a stored CATIA camera view that was imported to 3D PDF automatically. Can Simlab do this? FN19 calls for a fay and edge sealant to keep moisture out and prevent corrosion. The same could be used to specify calk for a window or door. FN19 is “Associated” to geometry by a link toolbar. That should reduce the need for section cuts, since there is a visual of applications there is no need to define where FN19 starts or end. Any cuts that are needed can be imported into the combined PDF. Can Simlab store 3D cross sections that annotations can be applied to?

 

Inspection: The oval bubbles are “Locator Tags”. They can be associated to geometry or FNs to denote inspection requirements.

 

General Notes: Defined in the specification tree. Does Simlab have the ability to copy/paste into the spec tree then modify the text to general or FNs? ?

 

Dimensions:  I see lots of unnecessary redundancy on condocs that clutters drawings, one rule of thumb is don’t do that. Provide only what is required. Each trade can interrogate the model easy. Is this true? Ruler or ability to dimension in 3D? Some MEPs can do their own drawing’s. Many trades have done it for decades and don’t need to be hand held. We’re not defining the space shuttle.

Schedules: Be nice to auto-export to live 3DPDF otherwise combined PDF.

 

Room Labels: Should be obvious others wise use associated FN.

 

File Formats:

Windows CA export/Simlab import: DWG 2015 AutoCAD only? DXF, STL (3D print), 3DS, DAE. Any issues importing?

 

WebGL?

 

Which Product?

 

USA Phone Support?

 

Red highlights are my questions and notes if anyone knows an answer or other software. I see they are in Jordan and I don't see a USA phone contact. I see a forum I'll get on and ask. Not good, I'd rather talk on the phone. Perhaps time to upgrade my cell plan to international if I can handle the time zones diffs. 

 

This is a different way of thinking. It did not happen overnight at corporate I work for. You have to work with your downstream users. It may be little bits at a time. Eventually, you will reduce or eliminate paper. Clients - that's your realtor, your, or your sales team job. 

post-5962-0-66710400-1470670979_thumb.png

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Don't overlook Octane Render.  Very Progressive features.  Not PDF though.  You will have to convert to OBJ to use your models.

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Don't overlook Octane Render.  Very Progressive features.  Not PDF though.  You will have to convert to OBJ to use your models.

 

Do you own a license? If so does it have any of the features I described above to reduce or eliminate the need for 2D drawing's? If so which ones?

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Yes, I do own a license to Octane Render.  Where Octane shines is that it is an interactive and unbiased ray tracing engine that is GPU based.  What that means is that a full on ray trace app that you can fly round in with very little delay before you have a good image, and only a few seconds longer for a finished product.

 

What I find to be one of the best features is the ability to change materials on the fly.  Octane is also becoming a very prominent player in the production of motion pictures due to the quality and speed of production, and also very reasonably priced for small shops for the production of animations and fly overs.

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This is probably confusing to most unless you have worked in 3D design_build.  It’s not about rendering RT’s, although high definition 3D models are a bonus. It’s not about “build to print”, it’s about build to “3D Model Based Definition (MBD)”. Where this ultimately ends up is eliminating the 2D drawing and LOTS of drafting hours rendering CA “Lay-Out” useless. CA does not have the stand alone capability to do this, supplemental software is needed. 3D PDFs are one tool needed, and other modeling techniques.

 

Let me try and break this down better.

 

1. Look at Simlabs “Specification Tree” where operations are stored in a 3D model “tree”. What I am looking for here is the ability to modify the text in the tree since this is where MBD general and flag notes typically go instead of the 2D drawing. More advanced software can output these tree based notes to EBOM/EML (Electronic Bill of Materials) Material List, along with components.

Another option here is to create the notes and ML in separate PDFs to be combined with 3D PDF and camera views as required. Adobe Acrobat Pro has a “Combined PDF” function. Video definition can also be combined.

 

2. The other I mentioned above is interactive Flag Notes that are linked to 3D space geometry or “Associated”. “Locator Tags” or bubbles for Inspection are also linked. That reduces or eliminates the need for section-cuts, some build planning. I gave an example of a sealant application. This is a nice MBD feature for visualizations of say sealants but not necessary. Video or 3D camera views can also be used and added to the combined PDF. If a section-cut is needed use the 3D slider, capture an image, send it to combined PDF.

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Here a PIC worth 1000 words. The tree shown has notes a lot of which define tolerances vs drawing's I can modify in a DBX...not that buildings are +/-.010 ;)

post-5962-0-69019400-1470764518_thumb.jpg

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Terry, can you explain how this software is going to significantly improve the home building industry and what value it will bring to my customers (homeowners) and my Trade Partners. Who are the primary beneficiaries of this investment and will it improve my customer satisfaction rating?

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Jeff, ET all,

The level of benefit will depend on the level of understanding and integration. Firms with in house design_build or Engineering_GC (recurring building production) will see it fast and the highest initial saving’s. Trades and Design only firms that source drawings to builders/trades last. This is a design_build software process in its finest. Separating it can be a challenge and won’t see max saving’s. I have seen this mistake before we are not just talking about a design tool. MBD forces integration of design_trades (downstream users).

There is no choice here, it’s just a matter of time before competition streamlines their processes with MBDs. Those that don’t get on the band wagon will be left behind. We’ve seen how computer tech leaves some behind before, the sooner you start the better. Those that do can act as very profitable consultants to show others how save money by not creating drawings. Drafter jobs are not going away, they are being redefined with a higher skillset or integration of the design_build process as technology moves towards state of the art CAD/CAM assemble, higher quality/precision, lean designs and production, rapid prototype, auto fastening, laser locating and inspection driven from MBDs.

This has already been proven in aero/auto. I’m not familiar with building corporate but would be shocked if they are not already all over this. The MBD has been in development for over 15 years now. The home building industry is just way outdated. Boeing in aero was the first I believe, the 787 Dreamliner back in 2000. I worked MBD design and build engineering where at the time trades were interrogating the 3D model taking camera views that were not stored as engineering released cameras/captures, adding annotations/dims, and it was a mess since the trades are not design engineers. We also used 3D dimensions and tolerance (GD&T) which gets complicated. It was a mess and some companies still are. We see this often in the home building industry now, a mess, lots of cost. Mechanics/trades were complaining about the lack of drawings, trades (suppliers) did not have the software/understanding that today is required to be part of MBD supply chains. The best benefits come from getting the right team on board. In this industry that includes realtors, agents, banks, inspectors, appraisers, raters, manufactures, etc…I’m not sure if BIMS, AutoCAD, Rivet, is on this or not. AutoCAD I use is not tree based but, it may have other ways it has developed.

Two colors of design_build money/saving’s, recurring R&D (RC) and Non-Recurring Cost (NRC, Production). RC the cost savings is NO MORE DRAWINGs. Quality increases since trades and other downstream users are not trying to project orthogonal views in their minds, the “Sole Authority (SA)” MBD does that well. Sustaining drawings is gone, so is sending paper around and reading paper at job sites. Trades interrogate the MBD electronically, measure; create dimensions as they see fit, not some designers that has no build experience in that trade. The level of communicating with trades to get the right drawing definition is reduced by far or eliminated. These days many trades have their own ability to create drawings from a sole authority MBD the designer’s shares ore releases, or cloud based interfacing, and their drawing(s) can be inspected to the MBD.

That is all accomplished in the field or site on tablets, phones, and computers. We keep the 3D model updated at all times since it is SP and there is nothing else, no attached documents like Engineering Orders, etc…. We manage the rev level of the 3D model(s) not a series of paper drawings or documents by rev blocks. The amount of time saved by not creating and maintaining drawings on a cost basis is huge, do the math.

When you’re able to provide a higher quality “design and/or build” product to industry you better your place in the competitive market. Your customer satisfaction ratings can only increase. One can take the profits and/or pass them on to clients to be more competitive. It won’t happen overnight, the first step is to get started before your competition beats you to it.

The critical tool needed is knowledge and experience. Bare minimum software is Adobe Acrobat Pro I posted in the OP. It takes some getting use to. I need to get on Simlabs forums and ask questions or call, it looks the best so far. They claim their software is written for “Engineers”, just not sure if it is to latest MBD standards. Sketchfab is not going to cut it, I’ll look at Octane, and rendering is a bonus not all that is needed. Rod is on the right tract, I recall seeing a live framing PDF. You would want to have separate MBDs for framing, MEP, sales/client initially.

If you are a production builder the first article inspection (FAI) or prototype will prove the 3D MBD Design_Build process. Once it’s established you’re on your way to more cost reductions and lean builds. Modifications are a breeze.

Any other CA supplemental software I can look at please inform….I’m working on a small spec design to be built soon, thinking of developing this with no drawing’s. 3D model(s), combined live PDFs, computers, phone apps, all electronic, that’s it Chiefs :)

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Terry, I appreciate your knowledge and enthusiasm regarding design and engineering but your starting to sound like a politician :lol:and not getting into specifics. Lets get hypothetical for a minute.

You are a design/engineer who created this 3D MBD Design_ Build process and need to convince me, a CEO of the largest home builder in the US to invest 10's of millions of dollars to buy, integrate and train all of my Team Members along with doing the same for all our Trade Partners. We build in 75 markets in 23 States with 75 different product lines each consisting of 9 to 15 plans with 3 to 4 different elevations and over 100,000 different options for a homeowner to choose for their home. I have been operating fine with 2D plans for 40 years. I have one system that tracks every customer from time they sign a purchase agreement, thru the Design and Options process, Purchasing and Estimating, Scheduling from start of their new home thru their 2 year customer service (warranty) period. We closed a record 54,000 homes last FY, have been reporting record quarterly profits and our JD Powers and Assoc. customer satisfaction rating has increased 4 points to 95% of homeowners who would recommend us to their family and friends as the builder of their new home. Why would I want to fix something that is not broken?

How will this positively benefit my Land Development teams in buying land, the neighborhoods designed and thru the approval process, then developed to build on? How will this have a positive impact our Marketing and Sales teams ? How will this increase our cycle time for our Design, Purchasing and Estimating teams? How will this benefit our Managers in the field along with our Trade Partners? How will this impact our Mortgage, Appraisal and Escrow business?

You have stated several time that the building industry is a mess. Can you please elaborate on this topic as some of my close colleagues and I are quite curious as how you arrived at your observation.

The building industry is one of the few industries where the customer can have a product built to their specifications. I cannot go to Boeing and say I want a 787 designed with the rear fuselage 10' in diameter larger than the rest of the plane with the cockpit in the rear and one wing on the top and bottom of the plane.​

 

I thought I would share something my Father-In-Law told me about engineers; You can always tell an engineer but you can't tell them much. He had nothing but admiration and respect for the engineers at Boeing. 

My Father- In -Law was a VP at Boeing for 15 years of a 40 year career at the company. He led a group of engineers developing the composite material used on the 787. That was in 1984.

My wife, son, brother-in law, sister-in-law and my wife's Grand Father and 2 Uncles all worked for Boeing. Her Uncle was responsible for the design and development for the 777 and retired during his tenure with the 787 program. My wife traveled around the globe for 5 years dealing with the various contractors for the 787. At one time they had hundreds of engineers and thousands of support personnel spread around the globe getting the program back on track. 

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Jeff, the 787 was the biggest disaster in Boeing history. It was at least three times over budget and behind schedule to it's initial plan. The reason is they really did not understand the Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) technology since they had not developed it on previous small scale fuselages like the business jet industry had. Beechcraft Starship was the first to develop it as fiber placement on small shell. I helped develop it further on the Premier and Hawker Horizon I managed design teams.  The Dreamliner a 20’ diameter shell semi-mono the biggest in history. The production break interfaces mates were a disaster in SC and WA production lines. Add that to eliminating 2D drawings, the largest in history global supply chains much of could not even speak the same language, quality differences, etc... I forgot the unit number they recoup cost, its way out in the future still. Just talking today with some recent 787/777 coworkers from Seattle, and I was recently at the PA division two months ago, and things are quite a mess, have gotten worse, everyone knows it. Airbus will prevail and is with a larger market share (~55%) last I heard, A-350. A-350 competitor to the 787 program did CFRP and MBD on a smaller scale, not the entire bird.

 

Lessons learned here are don’t take on more than you can chew, especially if you don’t understand it. I’m a terrible politician, you have to have direct experience with MBDs to know what I’m talking about, to do and what not to do. I have seen many that are not comfortable with change in my career or new technologies “If it ain’t broken don’t fix it” Not broken YET! We could say that about aluminum vs carbon, it was fine carbon resist corrosion better but a real pain to design/produce and can be expensive depending on Boeing. The nahers are either put in a corner with no staff, or fired.  Anyone can believe what they want, the MBD will move to this industry just as much of aircraft technologies have and the building industry boast about in their sales hypes. Last I heard the average house in America has a high carbon foot print and last 30 years. Lots of mold and indoor air quality issues being found in structure, our restoration co sees often. For the price paid I don’t see that as great.

 

CA does not provide the software to do this, so I’ll need some supplement. I cannot answer further questions until I figure out some work around. Put the thread up to see if anyone is interested in developing it with me, not to debate over the proven. Much of what I wrote above is real I’m doing it now, helps me understand how to apply it to this industry better as I write, and you never know who may get it. I already answered a lot of your questions btw. The point of bringing Boeing up was not to provide an opportunity to boast about family members credibility, rather to show how the MBD can apply to buildings and I’m sure it is already under way.

 

Going home tonight to start a new 1200 SF residential design I’ll probably need some help with since I been off CA a while and a short time. Hopefully soon I’ll have an idea if I’m purchasing adobe pro or simlab or? I’ll generate some live PDFs for my trades send it out for quotes; my framers/MEPS do their own drawings. I’ll send the 3D PDF to my bank/appraiser for a construction loan, to a city AC I am buying the lots (I don’t see how any of this affects that purchase contract it is zoned as I need it SFH). My HERs rater can go off the 3D PDF. Insurance agent will get a 3D PDF. The Realtor can too and will appreciate 3Ds not drawings that can go in the MLS while being built. PDF can also combine video for clients. I can also do this on the cloud.

 

If I’m sounding like a “politician” again, well I don’t see how.  The point of the thread is not to spend a ton of time trying to convince the biggest industry builders or anyone to do MBDs. Not my concern at all! Could care less. 

 

Let’s please stay on topic, if you are interested in MBDs please post. I’ll keep those interested on my progress. Thanks to those that showed me some software to consider.

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I thought I as staying on topic. You say the building industry is a mess and you have the answer to their prayers. I just want to know specifics. You Say MBD's is or should be on the radar of big building corps and we have never heard of it before. You say this is going to revolutionize and take over the building industry and I just asked how. You cannot even explain how this will even be applied to the building industry. You have not specifically answered any of my questions. Aerospace and Construction have way more differences than similarities. Also can you limit your use of acronyms as I bet most of the people on this forum do not live with people who work at Boeing. You are obviously overly concerned with design and engineering and that is preventing you from seeing at the big picture. I think if you had your way all houses would be round (perfect for structure and load analysis) and be finished and furnished in a sterile like manner of a hospital.

I really appreciate over-enthusiastic employees like your self, but you need to fully understand an industry before you start criticizing and making recommendations when you do not fully understand the impact . Again web surfing and learning new software programs are not going to even remotely make you any type of expert in any field you choose. I am not even convinced you even fully understand MBD's except what you have learned in chat rooms on the web.

How can you expect people to take you seriously if you cannot answer any questions on how this will implemented and be any type of an improvement for the residential construction industry you criticize.

 

 

Unfortunately or fortunately it's not going to happen in our lifetime. The production single family builder has barely embraced 3D design let alone the concept of BIM. Design and engineering is an important part of the process but its just a small part of getting to the end result.

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Paramount (Terry)

 

What is the difference between BIM (Built Information Modelling)

 

and your MBD (3D Model Based Definition)?

 

You appear to be creating a variation of BIM, why?

 

 

Suggestion.

A lot of acronyms are used in the postings which is understandable given the topic.

However it makes it difficult for a reader who has not read all the threads.

 

I would suggest a "Table of Acronyms Used".

 

Thought provoking thread 

It is interesting to follow an "engineer's approach" to the design and construct industry.

If anything you are giving the "Chiefers" another way of looking at how design and

documentation could be approached.

 

Thank you for your postings!

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Paramount (Terry)
 
What is the difference between BIM (Built Information Modelling)
 
and your MBD (3D Model Based Definition)?
 
You appear to be creating a variation of BIM, why?
 
 
Suggestion.
A lot of acronyms are used in the postings which is understandable given the topic.
However it makes it difficult for a reader who has not read all the threads.
 
I would suggest a "Table of Acronyms Used".
 
Thought provoking thread 
It is interesting to follow an "engineer's approach" to the design and construct industry.
If anything you are giving the "Chiefers" another way of looking at how design and
documentation could be approached.
 
Thank you for your postings!

 

 

Ok guys, I'll try and cut down on the acronyms, I thought I had been. I remember when I first started here about a year ago I had to find out what they were and made a list I have somewhere. BIMS will be mandatory soon check it out it is in many locations now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling  Our AHJ has never heard of it, go figure!

 

Yes, you are getting this the most so far. I am, a more affordable variation of it. I use a similar model info collector called Enovia, there are others like Team Center, been around and a critical part of the MBD integration since it started 15 years ago. The MBD should be the non-recurring cost R&D design part of BIMS, test and FAI (see definition above) another, recurring maintenance records another, BIMS is just now doing the same from what I understand of it's current state since it realizes the importance of the MBD and life cycle management. I'll be capturing similar data and storing it to prove concepts at my FAI, tracking sustainability, on a small scale to start as it should be. There is no other way to determine if a design is good or bad or it's cost impact to sustain. There are many, many, many more of the same concepts used in aero/auto as the building industry. I have alot of experience in both to know what the differences are. Thanks for your support. 

 

BTW: We're all gearing up for the B3  Bomber in Melborne soon  :) I helped design_build the B2 back in 1984-1990. See ya soon! Hope to get this spec on the ground first. 

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Terry, I do not disagree in your approach to MBD but you have not defined how it would make the building industry anymore efficient. We do not manufacture buildings like the products we use in our homes. I do not foresee a MBD program communicating with a supply line adding materials to a large hopper and thus producing a house out the other end in the near future. Most of our tolerances are measured to a 1/16th of an inch compared to a thousands of an inch in manufacturing. We tried manufactured housing in a 30 lot plat and they over promised and under delivered. They finished the project 4 months behind what we could have done doing a stick build and their quality was marginal at best. I can honestly say that the products manufactured to be installed in our homes could benefit and could be using a MBD process.

I am not trying to be a hard ass or criticize your ideas but when someone tells me my industry is a mess and you have the solution, I want answers to specific requests and if you cannot provide answers well then my BS alarm starts going off.

No ideas are bad ideas but you better know and understand the industry that its associated with and be completely aware of the impacts that those ideas have on all the people around you as well as any financial ramifications that it may bring. I am sorry it's the Executive side of me speaking and take offence when someone who has little to no experience in the home building industry tells me we are messed up.

 

PS: How did you build and sell a house for $55,000. This is the type of thing that will get you some respect building houses and selling them for $42 a SF.

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Jeff, I can tell by your last post you have no idea what I'm talking about so lets just leave it at it will never work. I'm good with that now you have no reason to look at this thread anymore.since as you say it does not work for you. BIMS pretty much describes what I have in more depth above, anyone that has advanced experience in it should understand this. I have explained it over and over to a point I have no idea how to be more redundant.  You seem to have all your own answers and proven methods stick with them, so be it, I'm definitely not here to convince you otherwise nor waste anymore of my time. Good luck to you. 

 

I'll check out Octane soon, and when I get some post up on Simlab or call them. Will keep the rest posted. Combined PDFs are interesting to modify, I learned some tricks today to do it fast from a coworker. Lots of power features in the them for 3D model management. These kids are pretty sharp! I need to finish an MBD and ML, camera views, then I'll create a 3D PDF and combine them all and attach a sample soon. Describe how I did it and modify it fast and easy. I use cache files to create the 3D PDF

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Just wondering if anyone is using 3D models for drawing definition or 3D PDFs? 

 

3D PDF: http://www.tetra4d.com/

 I'm going to repost the OP hopefully we can get back on topic. I was clear here I don't have all the answers thats why I put the thread up looking for software experience or anyone else wishing to look at this? You can also PM me.

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I'll check out Octane soon, and when I get some post up on Simlab or call them. Will keep the rest posted. Combined PDFs are interesting to modify, I learned some tricks today to do it fast from a coworker. Lots of power features in the them for 3D model management. These kids are pretty sharp! I need to finish an MBD and ML, camera views, then I'll create a 3D PDF and combine them all and attach a sample soon. Describe how I did it and modify it fast and easy. I use cache files to create the 3D PDF

 

Facer_03 has alot of in site what I have been discussing is a variation of BIMS and there are many being used in this industry extensively and growing. Any experience or comments with regard to it and life cycle management would be on topic. 

 

Here is one definition of BIMS,

 

Building Information Modeling (BIM) is a digital representation of physical and functional characteristics of a facility. A BIM is a shared knowledge resource for information about a facility forming a reliable basis for decisions during its life-cycle; defined as existing from earliest conception to demolition.[19]

 

Also referred to as VDC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_design_and_construction

 

Aero/auto terms are IPT (Integrated Product Team) DBT Design Build Team.....exact same just different terms, lots of similarities.  The MBD is the design cornerstone for this integration as I described above using CA. 

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Here is the response I received from Simlab, as I said it is just a matter of short time before 2D drawings are gone and I figured many are already all over this since it just makes sense. Perhaps I can offer Simlab some real world experience and develop this option so that it is more applicable to the building industry it will revolutionize. I'm half tempted to get an international call plan, call them to communicate better. That was my first thought when I seen the software since it looks very close to what is needed. 

 

It is great the you're bringing this up at this point, Next release of SimLab Composer 7.2 (to be available in September) will include many components to make MBD (Model based definition) available for mechanical, architectural and interior designers, and you are validating the need.

Soon we will share tutorials about MBD functionality, showing the new features in SimLab Composer 7.2.

I believe most of what you are asking for will be available in SimLab Composer 7.2, though it will help if you can clarify the last two points with an example or more details.

* Can the tree be exported to 3D PDF? As a numbered text format would be best or as a 3D image? 
* Does Simlab come with 3D PDF software for the price shown or is that a separate Adobe Acrobat Pro purchase ? 

 

http://simlabforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10018

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