TheKitchenAbode

You are absolutely correct Doug. There is a lot going on as to how objects & elements are being treated, rendering is only one of many considerations. My comments were not intended to imply there was anything wrong with the software. It was just to provide some possible insight as to how the rendering is being dealt with. I believe that this may be useful in cases where rendering is the primary objective. As with any of these manipulations one must always check thoroughly to ensure that any negative side effects are acceptable. As you indicate, forcing or using elements outside of their intended use will most likely result in unforeseen consequences. The most significant are likely the framing computations and the material lists as an example. I strongly recommend that users utilize the appropriate built-in tools wherever possible to ensure plans & designs are of highest degree of consistency and integrity. These manipulative techniques should only be used as a last resort. This is purely conjecture on my part but I suspect that when one uses a predefined element such as a pass-through, door, window, etc. placed into a standard wall type that for rendering purpose the algorithms (software) see these as special items in order to adjust things so the wall surface does not extend into them. Possibly my use of the term Rendering Algorithm may be to blame for any misconceptions. Somehow out of all of the detail within a plan something has to determine what is to be rendered and what will not be rendered. To compute everything in its entirety, visible or not, would not appear to be the most efficient way to do it. Graham

Thanks Joe, it's all in good fun!

I did suggest in another post that you use "(Almost)" in your heading. Graham

For followers you may wish to jump over to the two new threads "Walls - A New Way of Building a Plan" & "Rendering Algorithms - They Define What You See". I think you will find many of the answers you are looking for. Graham

For followers you may wish to jump over to the two new threads "Walls - A New Way of Building a Plan" & "Rendering Algorithms - They Define What You See". I think you will find many of the answers you are looking for. Graham

The only instance I can see where you may wish the shelf to protrude beyond the cabinet face is for a microwave shelf in an upper cabinet. Graham

I just posted a new thread "Rendering Algorithms - They Define What You See" in my attempt to explain at the software level what is most likely happening here. Graham

There has been a lot of discussion lately concerning the placement of objects within wall cavities and how to get these to render correctly in a camera view. We have all floated an open faced cabinet into a wall and been disappointed that the wall is shown passing through the cabinet. Why should this be? The wall is there, the cabinet is there so everything needed to generate (compute) the view correctly is there. It's likely due to the Rendering Algorithms and the parameters the programmers set in order to maximize rendering times. Why spend time computing data when it is not within the cameras view, makes sense. This methodology is also applied to objects and predefined elements such as wall types. A standard interior wall type, drywall-stud-drywall, appears to have a default rendering plane, the drywall face. As such any element or object behind this rendering plane will not be computed, only objects in front are taken into consideration. This is why the wall extends into our open faced cabinet. To get the object to render as we intend the rendering plane must be shifted further into the wall or better still disengaged. It's like setting the clipping in a camera view or a cross section elevation. You are defining a plane that determines what is displayed and what is to be ignored. Although Chief does not provide a specific setting for this you can with the Glass House tool see the effect. The rendering plane has been disengaged, all objects and elements are included in the rendering algorithms and as such they are visible. For speed and visual purposes they have restricted the format to monotone & lines. So we do know that the capability is there. The challenge is how can we exploit this to get our renders correct. Obviously we need to somehow shift the rendering plane, but unfortunately there is no specific setting for this. Although this is true there is actually a relatively easy way to do this. For example, a standard interior wall type with 3 elements has its rendering plane defined by the exposed drywall surface. However a frame wall type with 1 element has its surface rendering plane defined by the stud face. With this wall type any object in front will be rendered correctly. Need to move the plane further back, just make the wall thinner. Need to disengage, make the frame material glass. With the Material Region tool you can now rebuild the drywall without altering the rendering plane as the polyline material will be considered to be in front and therefore rendered. I am certain there are many other ways to manipulate this to our advantage. Looking forward to all commentary. Thanks, Graham

That's a great way to do it. It looks like most of the difficulties everyone is having with these niches or any other element that penetrates the cavity is related to how the software rendering algorithm's function. They appear to be set to only compute visible surfaces in order to speed things up. With a standard wall type with default finishes the surface for computational purposes is the drywall face, therefore any data concerning on object that lies behind this surface is not taken into consideration. Starting with a frame wall by default sets the stud face as the surface and therefore any element in front of this will be computed. As you can define the stud material as glass you now have an invisible/transparent wall, likely how they developed the Glass Shower Wall Tool. Building a few standard wall variations as you have done and saving to the library takes care of everything and provides complete control over all surfaces and best of all every element is included in the rendering algorithm. Should post your above description under a separate heading for all to see. "The Ultimate (Almost) Wall" I left "(Almost)" in there because I know that within a few minutes someone will identify a shortcoming with this technique. We just have to accept the fact there is no such thing as "Perfect". The best we can do is to continue to drive in the right direction down this never ending road. Graham

Just putting this out for general comment. I have noticed in my brief time of exposure to this forum that it contains a wealth of invaluable knowledge contributed to by participants from many differing fields of endeavor. The diversified nature of Chief Architect with it's many differing tools and methods, results in techniques that are highly unique to a particular users needs and area of focus. Under the forums current structure this uniqueness is often overlooked. For example, there has been a lively discussion headed "Wall Niche" containing many differing ways to accomplish this. They all differ, but are in themselves all valid when one takes into account the commenters needs. From the posts it appears that contributors are from at least 3 or more differing fields of endeavor; Architectural, Interior Design (my field) and General Construction. Just wondering if there was a way to bring this to the forefront so users and forum participants may narrow down more rapidly techniques that may be more suitable to their specific needs or participate in discussions more focused in their area of endeavor. Please do not construe this as a desire to segregate the forum, input from all fields is vital and required, and everything should to be vetted from varying perspectives. An easy way to accomplish this might be to add a field description in the Topic Title. Wall Niche (Framing) Wall Niche (Architectural) Wall Niche (Interior) Something like this could be quickly adopted. I am certain there are many other suggestions or comments, looking forward to hearing them. Graham

Anxious to try the fix. Have HD3000 that freezes when Material Definition tool is used in elevation and/or camera view. Otherwise everything else works fine. Graham

If I may say so, there are many times where we are not sure if it is a technical issue or technique based issue. Putting our experiences out for general discussion helps in the determination of this. Hopefully this will ensure that Tech Support spends their time on issues that have the greatest probability of being truly deserving of their attention. Graham

Nice refinement of the concept I posted @ 1:04pm today under "Wall Niche" Graham

Hi Joe, exactly the same thing but more refined. Unfortunately I am not sure this post was available until after the fact. Graham

Here's an even faster way. Make the wall type glass, change wall width to say 4 1/2". Place your cabinet anywhere. Use Material Regions to configure the wall surface around the object, change to your desired finish. Graham

So far from my playing around it only works if the wall type is FRAME, both interior and exterior finishes must changed to glass in the Dialog box. Now the wall is see through. You can then place any object into or through the cavity. Go back and use the Material Definition tool and click on the Glass change material type to your desired finish and drag around to expose the item you inserted into the wall cavity. Go around to the other side and do the same thing, maybe in this case it's just drywall. This technique can be used for anything you wish to reside within the cavity, exposed on one face or right through both sides. Also cross section views will show the item within the cavity. Graham

Just checked this method against the material list function. Everything calculates correctly for all of the main materials, studs, drywall & tile. Likely the only thing would be for a large niche that mea need to framed like a pass-thorough. For most shower niches this would not be an issue. Graham

Here are two pics showing the above.

Played with this a bit. Here's a crazy work around. Wall type 3 1/2" framed. Change Interior & Exterior finishes to Glass. Must do it to both sides. Place your wall cabinet into the cavity according to the depth you need. Use the Material regions tool to rebuild the wall finish around the niche. On the other side use the Material Regions tool to rebuild the drywall. Graham

Ok here's what I did, keep in mind that I'm an interior focused guy. As I always clad the walls with partitions to represent the tile work I just pulled the wall behind out of the way. No more interference but unhappy framers!!! Graham

Sorry, you are correct. Works fine as long as there is a door. I will go back and take a look to see how I worked around this for an opening. Graham

You need to move it just slightly out from the wall surface into the room. if it is in the same plane as the wall surface it will be hidden. I use this method all the time. Graham

No need unless framing details are required. Just make sure to float it out say around 1/16" beyond the wall face other wise the wall finish will hide it from view. Graham

In post #43 Joeys experience brings to light a most important consideration as we attempt to upgrade our machine for improved performance. Unfortunately, especially if cost is taken into consideration, the bigger is better approach does not always deliver the expected performance gains. For example, increasing ram will only provide a significant benefit if the current level of ram is insufficient, otherwise you just have more unused ram. SSD's are great and by switching to one you will see a big improvement, however this will only impact on very specific functions related to drive read/write operations. The initial computer boot-up and program activation, once the program is loaded into memory the SSD drives benefits are minimal. Essentially an SSD drive is just a memory chip compared to a traditional platter type of mechanical drive. Elimination of the mechanical elements makes them faster when stored information needs to be retrieved. Graham

Great example & explanation Rob. Your end needs are similar to mine, require the highest level of detail and control over every element. Our ability to deliver this is why our clients choose us over a competitor. The only why I have found to achieve this with Chief on interior design is to utilize alternative tools/objects. Other than the lights & taps the attached design was generated using only two objects, a cabinet and a partition including the shower pan and even the sink. I can control and precisely dimension in all views. If I click on the glass for example I get its true size and position including offset from floor. There was little need to keep going back and forth to tool bars and catalogs. Drop one partition in the plan and just copy/paste, resize and position. Stacking partitions for detailed tile work is great as all bumping/pushing & snaps work perfectly in all views. I believe these posting truly bring to light that the method one uses depends upon the end needs of the user. Personally this is why I chose Chief Architect, it allows me to do whatever I whish. Chief Architect is an extremely powerful piece of software, it just takes a bit of time to discover it. Graham