X17 PM Pitfalls, Risk Assessment, & Suggestions

[Renerabbitt]

5 hours ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

Edit: Is an archived file the last saved file? Meaning, as the system is generating archives, when you save last and close the Project, is an archive generated with the last edits? That would be important.

If you set it up that way then yes it can archive based on your previous save"

I'm still not sure why it being a caproject file matters to you in the context of what you are doing. Restoring an archived layout for instance will bring in the associated plan files and anything else that was sent to view as shown here...All I did was restore the layout in archive:

No it wont bring in a pdf that wasn't sent to anything but that's a static object that could just be imported back in.
Since it doesn't seem to me as if you are adding textures that you are worried about losing...you would need to be building a lot of materials everyday from assets not already in your system for it to truly matter, unless I am missing something? More than likely you're not adding more than a handful of materials every week so a weekly backup would cover that.
If you must have a caproject file, I might think about switching to carbonite, which backs up your entire system and then you could just restore your managed files if you truly had a crash or more accurate, you would just restore your entire system if you had a crash. So no need to do this daily export since carbonite would handle that. 
If you're currently writing these caproject files to your main nvme, your pumping the read/write up pretty high and shortening the lifespan on an nvme...I don't know if you are or not but hopefully youre saving to a secondary non-system drive instead as your first save point.
Aside from carbonite, you could just use task scheduler or a symlink to backup the core managed files. Either one of these would save you from needing to manually export your caproject files every day. A project file for me is 270mb so thats a ton of redundant data being written.
Anyways just giving more info in case some of it is new to you

[SHCanada2]

2 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

f you're currently writing these caproject files to your main nvme, your pumping the read/write up pretty high and shortening the lifespan on an nvme.

in the grand scheme of things, of how many R/W are done constantly by windows and others, I would think doing an export is of negligible impact to the lifespan

 

[Renerabbitt]

19 minutes ago, SHCanada2 said:

in the grand scheme of things, of how many R/W are done constantly by windows and others, I would think doing an export is of negligible impact to the lifespan

 

you're right, I was wrong on that part

[Steve_Nyhof]

Just for the record... 
The system auto save is setting the update on the archive, not when we hit Ctrl+S / Cmd+S. Not saying anyone was suggesting against it, just pointing it out.

And it is working as we would want, so withing the Auto Save minutes, it is in fact saving to the previous save.

Without digging into the help file, I am assuming that this archive is NOT used if the software crashes, we restart and are giving a DBX option to use the more recently saved version. I say this because when we do take the latest saved version at a crash it typically has not lost any work. Where an Achieve set to 2 minutes would lose a lot.

[Steve_Nyhof]

I wanted to put some legs on my process...

 

This morning I was contacted by a builder who wanted to go over a plan I was working on. The Project was completed a month or so ago so I Exported it to a place organized on my D: drive.

 

Because the file is exported as a .caproj file that Chief recognizes to open on double click, it was quickly imported and ready to be worked on...

 

I made a copy of the working plan and named it Markup so I was not making notes on the original plan. Before I start on the changes, I will save the original .plan and .layout within the Project so they are not modified. 

 

This is why I like the idea of some type of automated system of Exporting Projects to disk. The feel of a Project is the same as if it were a standard file being opened by any software. I do not have other DBXs to jump through to add related files. I am not digging into some archive or backup system to locate this Project. It is all self contained, sitting in my file organization and works as expected. When expectations are not met, there will be support calls. 

 

The client wants to change a number of major things so this Project will stay in the PM for several weeks while I work on it here and there with my other Projects. When it is approved and construction docs are completed, and new permits are obtained I will Export it once again and overwrite the .caproj file on disk where it will be backed up.

 

 

 

 

[SHCanada2]

I'm not sure I am understanding, why are you exporting a project if you want to work on it? why not just make a backup copy of the plan file in the project?

 

For me I think my workflow will be:

1.keep all projects in PM. Let CA backup in the format CA chooses (zip file of everything). This backup is for the sole purposes of disaster recover, i.e. disk failure

2. if I need to checkpoint, I will do what I did before, which is make a copy. And I will let it stay in the project as copy(x). CA now lets you make a copy while the file is open, so that is a nice improvement.

 

I do not anticipate ever needing to look at a CA backup file, except in a disaster. And I do not anticipate to ever need to export.

 

For those with multi computer environments, then an export would be required

[Steve_Nyhof]

A bit to unpack here.

1 hour ago, SHCanada2 said:

why are you exporting a project if you want to work on it?

I think my point was clear above. I was done with the plan. I no longer was working on it, and in my process I do not need it to take up space in the PM. I have plans completed 40 years ago. Why would I want to store that in CA? 

 

1 hour ago, SHCanada2 said:

I'm not sure I am understanding, why are you exporting a project if you want to work on it? why not just make a backup copy of the plan file in the project?

To answer this question, I love that you as a Architect/Designer find the tools you like that works for your process. 

 

1 hour ago, SHCanada2 said:

For me I think my workflow will be:

1.keep all projects in PM. Let CA backup in the format CA chooses (zip file of everything). This backup is for the sole purposes of disaster recover, i.e. disk failure

2. if I need to checkpoint, I will do what I did before, which is make a copy. And I will let it stay in the project as copy(x). CA now lets you make a copy while the file is open, so that is a nice improvement.

1. Let me know how this goes for you by this time next year. I am currently drawing more than 120 plans a year. Even with using my builder code (like SND) for the Tag to organize my Projects in, it is already growing and just becomes more to look at. The process I am showing in the above post example is very normal to daily working with computer files.

I am still using the CA backup system, but just less often as I do not need 14 copies of my Library, etc.. Again, I like this backup for the reason it was designed.

2. This falls under user preference. I do like to put meaningful copied plan files in my Project and do. But I am not making multiple copies for safeguarding my work within the Project, that is what cloud services are for and work very well. 

 

1 hour ago, SHCanada2 said:

I do not anticipate ever needing to look at a CA backup file, except in a disaster. And I do not anticipate to ever need to export.

I also do not plan to need the CA backup file, and even within a disaster, as I Export my work to disk, all my Projects will be backed up and versioned based on the changes made during that Projects file life.

 

1 hour ago, SHCanada2 said:

For those with multi computer environments, then an export would be required

Yes, and the reason I am tooting my horn is because while I am a single user, I am interested in the growth of CA into the support of the team. I know that is CAs goal too, but I am all about making more options available so that every user finds the PM comfortable with the way they like to work with it. I think what I have proposed in a Project Backup and/or Trigger would work amazing for a team and sharing environments. But I know it would also work great for the way I like to operate within the PM as single user.

[SHCanada2]

2 hours ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

I think my point was clear above. I was done with the plan. I no longer was working on it, and in my process I do not need it to take up space in the PM. I have plans completed 40 years ago. Why would I want to store that in CA? 

good point, yes even I  will likely clean house every once in awhile, and may do it by project export, but in pondering it now, I will more likely I will just take a copy of the CA backup and store if off on disk, and then delete them out of PM. If I ever need a plan from 5 years ago, I will probably then go in and unzip it. For me when I am "looking" for a plan I did, I typically look at the PDFs because it is faster, and those are already in a directory. so in the future I will find the PDF, see the timestamp and then find the CA backup that I copied off, which is newer than that timestamp.

 

 I do about 40 plans per year, so maybe every December copy off a backup and delete files out of PM that are older than 4 or 5 years Currently I am not bringing X16 files into X17. If I need to make changes I am doing in X16. So for me, this copy off and delete process will not happen until probably 4 or 5 years from now. but never know maybe next year at this time there will be too much clutter

 

Currently I have 8 projects, so it is not cluttered enough to have filed them via the folder tags. So it will be interesting to see how I am doing next year, but half my work is doing variations of existing, so that will all be in X16

 

 

[Renerabbitt]

1 hour ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

Trigger would work amazing for a team and sharing environments

So I want to admit that I have been deeply confused about this request from the start, so it's hard for me to understand the focus really. I do think we could use some additional backup function but regarding your specific request, I just don't understand your process.
You seem to have a need for backing up projects on a daily basis, that part I get, but what I don't get is why the backup does not suffice, and the reason I don't understand that aspect of it is that what you have stated previously is that this is for the case when you have a failure, meaning a backup is required. SO you are doing a ton of complex manual work to get your daily project file into its appropriate place, but the thing I don't personally get, is that I have only had 2 computers fail in the last 15 years. Even if that number was 4, the amount of work you are doing to keep an organized daily project file backup can't possible equate to the amount of time it takes to find the file in the automatic backup file and import it into chief and relink the layout...if we crashed 4 times in 15 years, that's maybe 4 minutes of importing a layout and plan and relinking it..or relinking from the previous save archive.

I just grabbed a plan from the backup and restored it and relinked it and it only took 30 seconds. ..sure I get that you have this preference and far be it for me to stand in the way of a preference, but this specific preference can cause chief a large number of support calls when you consider how others might unintentionally abuse such a system.

I want to keep adding in more knowledge for you to consider your request. Most offices that I work with on a regular basis keep versioning in terms of design version and iteration. They need a design review A-D with versions 4-5 for different collaborative team based designs. This means keeping upwards of 8 files in any given conceptual design phase. Then through that, that might keep a history based on date as progress sets, potentially compounding on several design versions that are set to be further developed so now they may have 12 active versions of the file. Then they may keep these versions through progress cycles while more work is done and they typically wanted to keep previous dated files, as well as keeping files separate based on design technician.... so you might have now 24 active file sets for example:

This is very very common in many offices.
Now consider that my template file, completely blank, with nothing drawn, saved as a caproject file is 270mb. A finished project may be 350mb then...this means im keeping one project active through its design development phase to the tune of  8gb and if we have an office going though 10 projects at 6 office seats, I just feel like somewhere in there is some problems, transferring 80gb of data across 6 machines constantly. Ever wait for a client to download a 280mb file on their terrible ISP during a meeting? .its excruciating.
Add in that I keep all versions from all projects for 7 years before deleting older copies...this is an incredibly huge data store now. It's not that I would use this method, its that someone could without knowing why a caproject file is so large.

I think the request just needs more consideration. I also think that this triggers more questions than it solves for. Most of the people I run chief training and tech support for on a daily basis have trouble even finding their "extract all" button on a zip file. I could almost guarantee that people are not going to understand that when they export a caproject file that this is a DUMB copy. I think they should be prompted to delete the copy in the project browser if their intent is to share with a colleague to work on, since their is now no linked correlation between the exported copy and the original. I swear this will become an issue without proper guidance.

..I'm still a big advocate for having an entirely separate half of this software disabled until you hit an advanced button in preferences for users like yourself who understand complex actions. Give someone an automatic caproject file export where they did one of the most common design based things ever...importing a gigantic sketchup warehouse file and wondering why their hard drive ran out of space on their machine because they dont know that a caproject file is storing all of the images for their project every time it runs even if all they did was 5 minutes of work. I am certain you can see the issue here?

I personally would love it if we could export a linked project as a separate file from the linked assets of that file and chief could figure out how to make the two work in unison, and then we could have the option to export a project with or without the assets. 
I know I keep getting a reputation for trying to railroad suggestions...and I suppose I don't full understand why I am compelled to get into it. I think a big part of it is that I just get passionate about creating things that are scalable and function for all users on the whole. One of the biggest problems to me with Chief is every consideration runs through a major bottleneck..which is "How will this effect the volume of support calls?" It is the thing above all things because its one of the largest selling points of this software and every single suggestion must force its way through that sliver of a funnel...and in its current state, this request has the potential of increasing support calls...so what can we do to help narrow its focus and understand your core need.
Dermot said something to me one late night after their dinner event and I am paraphrasing to the best of my recollection..help me out here @KTransue..."Don't tell me your solutions, don't tell me your problems, just tell me what your goal is and maybe I can build something that will work for you"
from my understanding and simply stated:

Your end goal is to have a daily automated backup of your linked layout and associated plan files that you can sync to your own independent cloud.
 

[KTransue]

12 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

"Don't tell me your solutions, don't tell me your problems, just tell me what your goal is and maybe I can build something that will work for you"

Yes, and I was there in that conversation.  Dermot understands the underpinnings like nobody else (I think), and there have been many times when he showed us what he meant by that statement.  And good things have come from our suggestions.  

 

I completely agree with René that it would be great if we had an entire application configuration switch, like we have toolbar configuration switches, because some things are more advanced than the general user might need.  And, I agree with @Steve_Nyhofas to his reasons for wanting coherence and commonality across applications (and definitely within applications) across an operating system, and I equally agree and disagree with many of the other points in this thread.

 

All of these ideas, opinions, concerns, and perspectives are gold to those that listen and know what to do with them ... which is why (my opinion only) the design would have benefited from a requirements gathering stage in the first place.  Maybe it was.  Don't know.  Can we articulate our thoughts and opinions into a specific concern or request?  Is there a chance it will make a difference?  And, is Dermot listening?  If so, let's keep talking.  If not, this is all academic.

[Steve_Nyhof]

I guess I like the idea of just working with my files like I always have. I don't need to open a file from a zip file and select others when asked, or count on a new method for my files to be backed up. So far I am liking just manually exporting to save the Project to my folder organization on my D: Drive, like I always have with a .plan - which is auto backed up to IDrive and Google Sync, which my other files do and are accessible when I want them, or I can access them on my laptop also.

 

Because I am always Exporting when I am done, I know the latest Project exists in my backup and google sync. Just like my other non CA files. I know where my Projects exist on my hard drive when outside of the PM. If they need to be worked on months later, I go to my folder organization on my D: Drive, like I always have, and double click the Project file to Import it back into the PM. If Chief can automate this through a backup and/or trigger I would love that, and I think others would also.

 

I do share my files with several builders and designers, and it will be easy to right mouse on the Project file in Google drive, because it is automatically there, and share it - again like I would do with any file that is automatically stored and backed up that I can share. To me this is simple, it is how I would describe working with files on a computer if a new user wanted to know how software, folder organization and files work. 

 

@Renerabbitt I set up an appointment with you. I will want to dive into this at that time to understand better from your point of view. I may come back here to change my mind.

[Steve_Nyhof]

12 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

..I'm still a big advocate for having an entirely separate half of this software disabled until you hit an advanced button in preferences for users like yourself who understand complex actions. Give someone an automatic caproject file export where they did one of the most common design based things ever...importing a gigantic sketchup warehouse file and wondering why their hard drive ran out of space on their machine because they dont know that a caproject file is storing all of the images for their project every time it runs even if all they did was 5 minutes of work. I am certain you can see the issue here?

 

 

I have discussed similar things with a Chief friend. Some years ago we talked about the same thing. Dumb CA down for new users, and turn on options in Preferences as you are ready for more. However, we recently talked about how Chief should just come up with a new Version. Keep the current Premier so that there is access for older plans, but using the knowledge of the past and knowing the new technology today, to rethink how things work, like the stairs. I think there are a number of things that are not advancing with Premier because anything new that we want, has to also work with pulling old plans into the new version without breaking them. There is a point where you cut your loses with the old and let is die a peaceful death, and create a new system where those 8,000 requests of ours can be hashed out before the development begins. I wonder what it would be called? 

 

[KTransue]

16 minutes ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

I wonder what it would be called?

I’d call it Chief Architect Premier X18 … has a nice ring to it, yes?

[SHCanada2]

3 hours ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

f they need to be worked on months later, I go to my folder organization on my D: Drive, like I always have, and double click the Project file to Import it back into the PM. If Chief can automate this through a backup and/or trigger I would love that, and I think others would also

You(or someone) could probably write a script or windows service that makes just the plan and/or layout backup to a directory. The simplest way would be to extract from the CA backup automatically

[Steve_Nyhof]

4 minutes ago, SHCanada2 said:

The simplest way would be to extract from the CA backup automatically

I would be totally down with this if it gave me what I wanted

[Steve_Nyhof]

3 hours ago, KTransue said:

I’d call it Chief Architect Premier X18 … has a nice ring to it, yes?

[SHCanada2]

1 hour ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

I would be totally down with this if it gave me what I wanted

you could post your project to freelancer.com. You need to tell them what the CA backup looks like, how often it creates one, that there are multiples, and that you want a service that extracts them from the zip file and then, I assume, you want them placed into a directory structure based on the name of the CA project. or if just one big directory, then tell them that. But that will be the key piece of the puzzle. And then tell them if you want it triggered by a newly created CA backup within x minutes of it being created

 

And then you will need to tell them what to do if the plan file is already there, do you want it overwritten or a new one generated. Do you want them to compare the two first to see if they are different before making that decision

[Steve_Nyhof]

2 hours ago, SHCanada2 said:

you could post your project to freelancer.com. You need to tell them what the CA backup looks like, how often it creates one, that there are multiples, and that you want a service that extracts them from the zip file and then, I assume, you want them placed into a directory structure based on the name of the CA project. or if just one big directory, then tell them that. But that will be the key piece of the puzzle. And then tell them if you want it triggered by a newly created CA backup within x minutes of it being created

 

And then you will need to tell them what to do if the plan file is already there, do you want it overwritten or a new one generated. Do you want them to compare the two first to see if they are different before making that decision

I will look into this if the next release of X17 does not have something for Projects.

[Steve_Nyhof]

18 hours ago, Steve_Nyhof said:

I would be totally down with this if it gave me what I wanted

Actually, just working each day now in the PM, to do an Export is really no more work than a Save As where I select the folder I want it stored in, and if the file exists, I am asked to overwrite it.. Yes, done. Now I know that this is my latest file, it lives on my hard drive where I want it, and that it will be picked up by my other backup systems and do there thing. Very happy with this.

 

If I do not add an additional comment it may be looked at by Chief as "good enough", so I will end by saying, if there is a way to auto save the Project once saved to disk, then I am down for that. The trigger could be that once all .plan and .layout files are closed, I get a popup listing the Projects that have changed and if I want to overwrite the Projects on disk. If the Project is new and I have not manually Exported it to a place on disk, that in that same exit popup, I am asked where I want to export (save) my Project to on disk.